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Thinking of a C27?

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DanM
Captain

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USA
256 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/01/2009 : 07:00:13

Seems like a reasonable deal:
27' Catalina 27 1977 Le Chat NEW LISTING 30HP Atomic Four Inboard, Tiller, Autopilot, Knot, Depth, CD Stereo, 110V Shore Power, 2006 Mainsail & Genoa, Bottom Barrier Coated, VC 17, New Standing & Running Rigging, Turn-Key Ready, Located Buffalo, rick@rcryachts.com $7,900

DanM _/)
'85 C25 4870
Buffalo, NY-Pt.Abino, ON
www.buffalocanoeclub.com

Edited by - on

DanM
Captain

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USA
256 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2009 : 07:16:56

I think I just broke one of the rules! Sorry, but I couldn't find the edit icon right away (just did, but too late). Financial disclaimer: I don't have any interest, just store and service my boat there.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2009 : 08:20:55

Although it sounds like the boat is basically in good condition, that's still a fairly hefty price for a 1977 C27 with a gas engine in a declining market. The Atomic 4 engine was rated at 30 hp, but by modern standards, it's not nearly as powerful as a modern 30 hp diesel, and anyone who has owned one should know that, so the claim that it has a 30 hp engine, while historically accurate, is misleading. Assuming you cut and pasted the owner's or broker's ad, I'm not inclined to get involved in a business transaction with a person who's ad is misleading about important matters in such a way that the owner ought to know better. I never, ever, deal with someone I can't trust.

Some people might not react to the ad in the same way that I did, but when I see an ad that looks just a little too cute or cleverly contrived, the little voices that warn us of impending danger start telling me to look elsewhere for a boat.

Edited by - on

mlg3733
Navigator

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118 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2009 : 10:27:12

I am confused: the fact that todays's 30 hp diesel engines are more powerful than 1977's 30 hp gas engines makes this a misleading ad, and the broker (In the business of selling boats) a less than honest person?

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2009 : 10:29:33

Steve,

So any seller who lists a "30Hp Atomic Four Inboard" is being misleading and distrustful if they don't also add that this engine is not nearly as powerful as a 30hp diesel? I might think it to be misleading if say the seller just stated "30Hp inboard" which might be inferred as to being a diesel, but to specifically point out the inboard is an Atomic 4 is in my opinion, being rather open. Would I be misleading if I said my boat comes with a 2-stroke outboard without also stating the obvious benefits a 4 stroke? I think not.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2009 : 11:26:00

I conceded that others might see it differently, as you apparently do. But, referring to the Atomic 4 engine as 30 hp leads a prospective buyer (who is probably thinking in terms of modern standards for measuring hp, rather than obsolete 40 year old historic standards, that might well have been superseded long before the buyer was even born) to think that he's getting a robust engine, that will drive the boat efficiently in most conditions, when the truth is that an old Atomic 4 hasn't the power to drive the boat straight to windward in 15 knots of wind at a reasonable speed. You'll be buying a boat that can't be driven directly to windward under power in 12-15 knots, and you'll either have to motor sail it, beating to windward the hard way, or wait for the wind direction to change.

I don't know if a court would consider it a legally actionable misrepresentation to call it a 30 hp engine, because, even though it would be utterly untrue by today's standards, it was true according to the standards of 40 years ago. However, if a buyer complained about it in a court case, I could foresee the possibility that the court might rule it a legally actionable misrepresentation, because the statement is being made today, not 40 years ago, and by today's standards, when the statement is being made, it is utterly untrue. The engine doesn't generate 30 hp.

Suppose you started chatting on the internet with a sweet young thing, and you told her you were a 20 year old football player, 6'3" tall with a full head of hair, and you were a millionaire. Do you suppose she'd think you lied to her, when she learned that you are now 60 years old, you used to be a football player, you have shrunk to 6'1 and lack the football player's physique, as well as the full head of hair, and that you went bankrupt 30 years ago and are now being supported by your daughter, and living in her basement? There's something dishonest about leading a person to believe something, based on facts that were true 40 years ago, but that are no longer true today.

There are lots of C27s for sale, and most of them don't "puff" their advertisements so blatantly. I'd rather deal with a seller or agent who is candid about the boat, and describes it accurately as it is today, not as it was in 1977.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 02/01/2009 11:29:11

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2009 : 12:31:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle Wow, Steve... It sounds like you need to go back to bed and get up from the other side!

If anyone is doing anything questionable here, it's you disparaging the seller of that boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Dave, to the best of my knowledge, the seller of the C27 is not a member of this Association, and there is no Association rule against "disparaging" someone who is not a member.

Moreover, the person who wrote that ad is unidentified. It could have been written by the owner, or by his broker. So, I haven't "disparaged" any identifiable person.

Moreover, I am entitled to an opinion, and believe my opinion is at least as reasonable as anyone else's, especially in view of the fact that it is based on substantial experience with an Atomic 4, as well as the fact that my present boat has a 30 hp engine, so, I know what the Atomic 4 can do, and I know what a modern 30 hp engine can do.

Dan initiated this thread, and must have understood that some of us might have different opinions about the value of this deal. If an engine isn't as strong as it might appear to be, that's an important factor to one of our members who might be thinking about inquiring further into this boat. Also, if there is a reasonable basis for believing that someone is puffing the merchandise, that's also an important factor for our members to think about.

We're not here to help someone sell a boat for a non-member. We're here to stir each other to think about things that might help our members to either avoid making a big mistake, or that might help them negotiate a better deal. I'm not interested in helping the seller or his agent. I'm interested in providing useful information to our members, and believe that I have done so in my posts, especially for people who have no experience with Atomic 4 engines.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 02/01/2009 12:45:47

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2009 : 13:45:24

Actually, shouldn't the original post have been made in the Swap Meet section instead of here in the general section?
Steve, you have imparted some useful information, and you are, of course, entitled to your opinion. However, I think you took it a bit too far. Dan stated the model year of the boat and that it has an Atomic 4 engine. Absent info to the contrary, logic would dictate that the engine is also from the same time period and the stated hp is the engine's labeled hp as measured at that time. If I were selling an old outboard motor, I would list it with the hp it was originally labeled with and would not even think about adding a note that a newer motor of the same hp may be a more powerful motor. It's not my responsibility to educate a potential buyer about the advances in marine engine technology or changes in measurement standards.
Also, the sweet young thing analogy doesn't fit, because, in that example, the guy told outright lies about his current physical description and the applicable measurement standards haven't changed.
Signing off now to check other threads.

Edited by - dmpilc on 02/01/2009 13:49:17

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2009 : 14:08:46

There's an awful lot of vitriole for such an innocuous posting.

Lighten up, guys.

Gawd, I hate winter!

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2009 : 14:27:58

Disregarding the engine issue...which IMHO, seems rather trivial, that boat is old and only a bit larger than a C25. If I were going to move up, I'd want a newer/bigger boat. Which I did do in 2004, went from an early 80s C25 to a 1997 C320.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2009 : 16:19:40

I think [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caveat_emptor"]caveat emptor[/url] applies here. If you're buying a three decade old boat, you expect that there will be problems. What else would you list a 30 hp engine as? As stated above, it's not the seller's responsibility to educate the buyer, it's the buyer's responsibility to be well informed. That's what they make books, surveyors, experience, and web forums like this for. I for one wouldn't think twice about listing an engine by it's make, model & horsepower, even if it were decades old. I also don't know how else you'd list it if you're trying to be transparent about your boat. For both of the boats I've sold, I've encouraged prospective buyers to read Casey's 'Inspecting the aging sailboat' prior to looking at them.

Edited by - on

bren737
Captain

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291 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2009 : 16:24:39

Gas? Atomics run on ordinary gas? What the. . . I thought Atomics were fueled with Uranium-235. . .

Edited by - on

welshoff
Captain

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USA
253 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2009 : 00:50:43

Here is an article on the [url="http://www.48north.com/mr_offline/atomic.htm"]Atomic 4[/url] from a reputable source. Looks like a reasonable deal to me - lots of upgraded gear. Lot's of C27's out there to choose from and compare this boat against.

I had a C27 5-6 years ago and it was a great sailing boat. I had plenty of power with the atomic 4. Read the article for more info on its +'s and -'s.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2009 : 09:10:05

We learned to sail aboard a friend's C-27. Its a nice boat, but the differences aren't so great that I think they are worth the extra money that you end up paying for a hanging locker, solid wood door to the V-Berth, and 2 feet of aft lazarette stowage. Thats all the difference I could find between a C-25 and C-27. Oh - and you actually LOSE space to the inboard. (The C-27 does have a little more headroom)

I still can't figure out why these boats (there are 4 in my marina) are marketed alongside the C-25. It seems like a no brainer to me - either pay and extra 2feet's worth for every canal you go through, dock you stay at, etc. or live with an OB and get basically the same boat for a little cheaper.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2009 : 10:25:57

You have a little more headroom, but I can't stand up in my slip neighbor's C-27, whereas I have plenty of headroom in my C-25 with the pop-top up. A C-27 would be a move down for me.

Then again, a C-42, there's a boat with headroom! ...and room for 2 heads! I've been trying to convince my friend who lives out of state to pick one up and I'll babysit it for him down here by the water.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1773 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2009 : 11:17:17

I too have looked at the C27 and my observations are that a "mint" condition with diesel go for @$10-12k -- in the @$7-9k area some good, some not so and the bargains (distress sail or long on the tooth) are under @$6k As we are talking about 30 year old boats, I would really check the decks and core systems before jumping in. The Atomic 4 is a solid engine, but it's gas and needs some TLC. If the survey came back clean and you really like it, then go for it -- but you might want to hold out for a newer diesel.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2009 : 19:04:06

I like the C27 as a heavier wind boat with a little more head room. I would prefer one on my lake but they are rare here for some reason.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2009 : 10:02:43

Lysistrata was listed as having a 30 HP diesel, but the tag clearly says 27 and it pushes 18,000 lbs. of boat and a ton of our crap at 6 knots at 2400 rpm. The rating is taken at the manufacturers top rpm recommendation. My Pearson 30 had an Atomic 4 and it was OK. All engines, diesel and gas, lose efficiency with hours of usage.

For $7,900.00 you should be able to find a vintage Pearson 30.

sten

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2009 : 11:16:14

Frank, if you have an interest in buying a C27, there is one for sale here. It carries an outboard. I know one of the PO's and raced with him on it once, but I don't know the current owner. I'll try to get details if you want them.

Edited by - dmpilc on 02/03/2009 11:18:56

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2009 : 12:26:59

Thanks, this will be a summer of Catamaran sailing, spring '10 I may be looking.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2009 : 12:37:39

I don't get the advantage of a C-27 over a C-25. 6" shorter at the water line makes it less desirable to me. It has more ballast which might make it more stable but, also perform less ably. I think the logiclal move up in size from a C-25 is to a C-30. Am I missing something here?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2009 : 13:38:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 ...I think the logiclal move up in size from a C-25 is to a C-30...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I agree, but I've also been on a C-27, and to me it was discernibly different--in feel on the water, and in headroom below. The C-27 was introduced six years before the C-25. The C-25 was brought out as a trailerable boat, which the C-27 is not (except under wide load regulations). The same comparisons can be made between the C-250 and the C-270. The C-27 remained very popular after the C-25 was introduced, with racing fleets in many areas, such as on the Chesapeake. I've never seen that kind of one-design racing interest and fleets for the C-25. LWL doesn't matter when everbody's is the same. Racing one-design is, IMHO, a lot more fun than correcting over faster boats or having slower boats correct over you in PHRF.

Edited by - on

dblitz
Navigator

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240 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2009 : 16:52:02

IMHO any GAS inboard is a deal breaker.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2009 : 17:17:45

IMHO, it all depends on where you sail. On inland lakes, where most motoring is less than 4 miles and less than 10 miles in almost any direction, I submit to you that a well-maintained gas engine will perform just fine.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1773 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2009 : 18:53:18

The engine should not be THE issue, the overall condition of the boat SHOULD be the issue. The newer boats should -- but may not -- be in better overall condition and most likely will have diesel auxiliary. However, if an older boat has been meticulously maintained but has an Atomic 4, then it may be the better deal. If you live in an area that has a long motoring channel to open water, then you want the best performing engine regardless of gas or diesel. That being said, I would prefer diesel, but, if the right boat appeared with an atomic 4 I would not consider it a deal maker or breaker -- just part of the overall decision

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2009 : 20:23:42

Diesel engines are happier being run hard and long, and suffer from short, light-duty use. Gasoline engines are better for short, light-duty use, and can run all day--but will burn more fuel doing it. Thus, coastal and Great Lakes cruisers will prefer diesels, and small-lake sailors might be better off with gas. Gas does present a responsibility to keep the engine compartment free of fumes, but that's a greater risk with older, carbureted engines than modern injected ones. As David said, it all depends.

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