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My batteries died

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Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/07/2008 : 12:54:28

I know this subject has been covered from head to toe but I'd like your opinions on a few things.

Last year I didn't have any problems with my batteries, my 18W (1.2 amps) solar panel kept them topped off all summer. I have a solar controller. The batteries are the typical acid types, 1 deep cycle and the other deep cycle starter. During the winter I brought them inside sitting on top of a cooler and plugged them (in parallel) into a 2A smart trickle charger so they keep their charge.

3 months into the season now I noticed my engine wouldn't start anymore. Tested the solar panel and it's 100% OK. Brought my batteries home last evening and noticed that one of them had a cell that has lost 50% of it's liquid. I charged the other at 10A last night and was at 100% this morning, let it rest for 1 hour and it was at 65%.

I read here that if you have a bad battery it takes the other one with it. My question I guess is "what did I do wrong?" I just don't want to kill the new one I'm about to purchase. Or maybe it was just their time to go to battery heaven? I have no idea how old they are.

Steve Blackburn, Calgary, AB
C250WB - 1999 - Hull 396

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 08/07/2008 12:56:24

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2008 : 13:19:36

How did you have them wired in the boat? If parallel, I suspect the one that lost the electrolyte has an internal short, and that it caused a similar problem in the other (or vice versa). In parallel, any problem with one will draw down the other till it has a problem, such as a warped plate.

The general rule is not to combine dissimilar batteries in parallel. Either use an isolator (that allows current to go to both but not between them), keep them on separate circuits (house and starter), or if you like the "parallel KISS" principle, buy two identical batteries (at the same time).

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2008 : 13:34:28

I'm told by friends that are more "electrically inclined" than I that the plates are VERY thin these days and short out pretty easily. I've had a couple short do that in the last 5 years.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2008 : 13:44:59

Yup, and AGMs solve that by putting thin absorbed glass mats between the plates.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/07/2008 13:47:20

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2008 : 14:28:12

You're probably right, a short sounds like the culprit because it just happened all of a sudden without any change to the system. Yes my batteries were plugged in in parallel + to +, and - to -. I'm only going to put 1 new battery in for this season as I'm not cruising more than 1 day. I'll have a look at Cotsco today and next year will buy the same battery as my second. AGM's would be great, but they are so much $$$.

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2008 : 14:56:43

Steve,
To make the parallel system work right you should not only use the same battery type and size, but you want the age be close too. Mixing a older battery with a new one could have an effect on the performance.

Most battery manufactures have date codes branded on them somewhere. The code will tell you when the battery was made right down to the month. Sometimes batterys will sit on store shelfs for months maybe years before they are sold. You might want to check out the manufacturer you plan to use and find out how to read their codes so when your searching for replacements you can pick two fresh batterys.

I just replaced my 2 batterys last month, there was only 2 months diffrence between thier age. The old batteries I took out were over 4 years old and still working fine. I got a very good deal on some Interstate marine deep cycles 27 series ($60 each), so I just replaced them before they went bad.

Edited by - Tom Potter on 08/07/2008 14:58:05

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2008 : 15:11:24

What did that old advertsement say? You can pay me now or you can pay me later.

My advice is spend the extra $ and get two new AGMs. No maintenance - ever.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2008 : 15:56:12

Another key benefit to AGMs is that they tolerate deep discharges much better than flooded or gel batteries. If a standard flooded battery (deep cycle or starting) is discharged too far too fast (won't start) or charged too fast (Bruce Ross's problem), some of the lead plates are likely to warp until they just about touch each other, causing arcing between them. That arcing is what "boils off" the electrolyte, creating hydrogen, oxygen, and (I think) hydrogen sulfide gas. That essentially can't happen in AGMs. They can be deeply discharged and fully recharged many more times than a conventional battery. (...and they're not as sensitive to charging voltages as gels, which can be easily fried.)

Also, idle AGM batteries lose only a tiny percentage of their charge per year, and therefore don't freeze. So there's no need to remove them and put them on trickle chargers over the winter. And they're safe right-side-up, sideways, or upside-down. This is a case where you do get what you pay for. I really don't understand why gel-cells are still on the market at about the same price.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/07/2008 16:07:12

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2008 : 19:16:04

I have one AGM deep cycle battery that is about 9 years old and is charged on a solar panel. It maintains a charge very close to original specs. I have two 12 volt deep cycle batteries that I bought at Canadian Tire Nov 2004...both of these are working at about half their capacity. I'll never buy another battery there and never buy another one that is not AGM. I spent $29 buying electolyte to top them up each of the past two summers.

Figure out if you need two batteries. I know that I don't when I sail at the lake. One battery is enough for my needs.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2008 : 23:26:26

A "1-All-2-Off" battery switch circumvents many battery problems and simplifies charging.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2008 : 09:01:29

I just got a very good education at CE Beckmans in New Bedford MA on this very subject. (They are pro's who basically deal with the fishing industry and the occasional yachtie) SV Lysistrata is burning up alternators and the batteries are struggling with input from shore, alternators 2, wind gen and two solar panels one of which is sorta aged and only putting out about an amp and a half. AGM's are cool, really designed for the aircraft industry primarily and then yachting as an after thought. You can tip them sideways, they do recharge at faster rates, they basically replaced gell batteries. Downside - 4 of them will be more than a grand! Flooded Exide brand batteries (what we have now) and those of that genre are much cheaper but will last only for a couple of years or so. The problem is that these 6 volt batteries are designed for golf carts wherein they will get a constant charge on a daily basis at the exact same voltage. Turns out that if your batteries receive input from various sources that there will be a loss long term in all batteries.

Yes, I got the lesson in how recharging works and why the AGM's work but don't displace the gas like flooded batteries do. There is a lot too it and I won't even try to reiterate my 2 hour discussion on this subject.

Bottom line - after reviewing all of the specs for AGM and for flooded, we are gonna stay with flooded 6 volt batteries. We will switch to Rolls which have a better lifespan are are still cheaper than AGM's but have similar performance characteristics. Bottom line, most fisherman buy the cheap ones and then throw them away after two years. There are those who demand the best, but the overall impression I got was that at this time and place, based on the pricing, flooded is still the way to go.

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - Newport, RI - In the Anchorage 24/7

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2008 : 10:27:48

I think most battery problems fall under the charging column. Sten, as a live aboard, puts much greater demands on his electrical system than most of us and obviously cannot provide an optimal charging profile all the time, but he still finds flooded cells cost effective. If you charge from shore power with a quality charger, don't discharge below 50%, and keep them clean, batteries should easily last 5 years. My starting battery is 7 years old and works fine, house battery is 4, and my last house battery from my previous boat is 10 and still going strong, but retired from full time marine duty. AGM's are definitely the top of the line, but I don't think the cost per amp year is close yet. With one newer battery on the switch as a backup, I can comfortably continue to use an older battery until its performance falls off. If you want plug and play and don't mind the cost - AGM; if you don't cycle your batteries every day like Sten (apparently even if you do), watch your dollars, observe the three rules of battery care and don't connect them in parallel - flooded cell.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 08/09/2008 : 13:35:25

I think Dave hit it right. If you are willing to pay closer attention to your batteries and provide more maintenance then flooded cells are fine. If you just want the batteries to work with very minimal care then AGMS are the choice.

I like the AGMs because I have other things to work on than the batteries. I charge the batteries infrequently and they get drawn down low. In other words I don't spend a whole lot of time attending to them. Yet, they need to work for my VHF, GPS chartplotter, nav lights, etc. They are a critical component of the boat and its safety systems.

For me AGMs and a quality "smart charger" provide for dependable, low maintenance electrical power. When I add up all of the costs of owning and keeping the boat the cost difference between flooded cell and AGMS is not significant.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2008 : 13:14:33

Steve,

I've been storing my flooded batteries over the winter for eighteen years and have had to replace them only once. The problem may be in your trickle charge hook-up. Even when they trickle charge they overheat and boil out electrolite. You have to do two things when storing long term on these chargers. You must check them every couple of months to make sure the cells are not drying up and two, do not trickle charge them in series. Do each one individually. The above discussion explains why.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2008 : 15:12:16

OK dumbest Battery question I can come up with...

I put both my Batteries on the charger yesterday for hte overnight race this weekend. How do I test them to see how much charge they are holding? I have a multimeter, but have never used it, and when I pulled it out last night, the sucker has about 20 settings and three spots to plug the wires in. I was stymied by the fact that I never thought it would take a battery n the multi meter to test the battery in the charger.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2008 : 15:55:03

First, let me apologize up front if I am stating the obvious. I don't know your comfort level with the meter and some have never touched one at all.

Digital multi-meters need an internal battery to run their internal electronics. Old style analog meters (with a needle) used the battery you were testing to move the needle.

Your multimeter has three connection points. One is for volts, one is the common, and one is for measuring current (amps). You want to use the volts and common connections. Set your dial, or buttons, to DC volts using the scale that will handle at least 14VDC. DC volts are usually indicated by an underlined "V". ( V ) Charge your batteries first. Then disconnect or turn off the charger. Measure your batteries by placing the volt cable to the positive terminal and the common cable to the negative terminal.. If they measure about 12.8 volts they are pretty well charged. I have seen automotive batteries that measure 13.6 volts fully charged. It is best to charge and measure the batteries separately if you are trying to determine the health of the battery as a good battery may mask a bad battery if they are connected. If you leave the battery disconnected, and wait overnight, you should see little or no voltage change. (Less than .100V) If it discharges more than that it is having a hard time holding a charge and should be replaced. Finding someone locally who can demonstrate the proper way to utilize your meter would be the best solution. They are excellent tools though not very intuitive.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2008 : 06:51:32

Thanks Joe.

On the way home from the office I stopped at an auto parts place, and picked up a car voltage gauge (I figure I'll mount it near the DC panel on the boat so whenever the power is turned on I can see how the batteries are doing. It showed both batteries fully charged (yay!)

Just for fun (and out of curiosity) I popped open the covers, and both batteries only looked half full of fluid. Is there a line in the battery for how full they should be?

A search of the forum brought up this thread: [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=12122"]Thread[/url]
"So what can we do about it? When I bought my most recent pair of flooded cell deep cycle group-27s, I checked the fluid right there in the store (to the annoyance of the sales staff). When I couldn't find even one battery with enough electrolyte in it, I asked to have a pair of them topped up with acid. Ha! Well, I had to at least ask. So I took them as is, and went to my local auto parts house where they sell batery acid by the pint. I dumped something like a quart or two into the batteries before reaching the high water mark. Yikes! See what a difference that would make in electrolyte specific gravity over the life of the battery?"

On our batteries, there are little plastic guards inside each hole to prevent the acid coming out to quick (I think). They are shaped like cups with a slot in the side of them, and go down about an inch into the battery. I didn't see any "high water mark" but will go and take a closer look tonight.

When I got the volt gauge, the guy at the parts place offered to sell me a load tester fo rthe batteries. It is like an analog meter, but its realy big, and when you hit a switch, it puts a load on the battery, then you can see if th ebattery comes back up to power after being loaded. For $40, it won't break th ebank, but I thought that it sounded like something more suited to car batteries than deep cells.

For the record, we have one Deep Cell battery, and one deepcell/starter, we also have a guest switch (Bat1, Bat2, Both, Off). I don't know if that makes a difference.

Edited by - Prospector on 08/12/2008 07:13:35

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 08/12/2008 : 09:14:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Is there a line in the battery for how full they should be?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You should fill the battery with distilled (not drinking) water to the bottom of the plastic cup you describe. Whenever you can see the top of the plates inside the battery extending out of the water you should top off the battery.

The load tester is an excellent way to verify the ability of the battery to hold a charge. Much better then just using a multimeter. It's like having an electro-cardiogram done on your heart as opposed to listening to it with a stethoscope. Whether you need that accurate a reading of the strength of the battery is a personal choice.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2008 : 09:28:15

A sailboat with an 8-10 hp outboard with electric start does not need a "starting" battery--just a deep-cycle (or two if you need the amps). They last much longer, through many multiples more discharge-charge cycles, and so will serve you better and cost you less. (I still like AGMs best, but that's another price range.)

If you have two batteries on a 1-All-2-Off switch, they should be identical. If they're different, stay away from the All setting, where one might discharge the other or prevent it from being charged.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 08/12/2008 : 23:14:30

The Digital Voltmeter or Digital Multi-meter can be helpful in determining how well your batteries charge up (whether completely or less than 100%), and how well they hold the charge. For flooded batteries, here's how they should read:

Full Charge ---- 12.6 volts (take this measurement about 1 hour after disconnecting the battery from the charging circuit
3/4 Charge ---- 12.4 volts
1/2 Charge ---- 12.2 volts
1/4 Charge ---- 12.0 volts
Fully discharged ---- 11.8 volts

There is one caveat however. Your DMM must accurately measure the voltage within about 0.1 volts or better.

I've owned a few different DMMs over the years and recently I measured my battery with an older one, and a brand new DDM. I found the older one differed by 0.6 volts, which for assessing batteries, is the difference between night and day.

Using a known good "old fashioned" analog voltmeter, I determined the older unit was out of calibration.

A fully charged 60 AH flooded battery should read about 12.6 volts after the charger has been disconnected for an hour or so.

Now, if you connect a 5 Amp load (e.g.: four 15 Watt lights, for example) after 9 hours, the battery voltage should be approximately 12.0 volts, or 3/4 discharged.

If your battery has suffered damage due to dozens of charge-discharge cycles or if the cells' electrodes have been "sulfated" due to undercharging, this test may fully dischange the battery. This does not mean the battery is no good, but it does mean that it is operating at a reduced rate and you should consider replacing your battery in a season or two.

If, however, your battery has had too little electrolyte or it has boiled off, this could short out a cell, and the battery will operate at around 10 volts full charge. This is a damaged battery and should quickly be replaced.

And as Dave and others have said, if you have two batteries and one is damaged, this will likely drain the other and subject it to chronic undercharging.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3441 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2008 : 06:05:37

In regards to measuring the voltage, some of the fishfinders show the voltage depending on the display options. Same goes for solar controllers - I have a Morningstar Pro-15M and that displays the volts and amps. When the solar panel is charging or the outboard charging, the solar controller displays the voltage incoming (and amps for the solar panel) but when not charging by either, then the solar controller displays the dual battery voltage.

The issue of having one weaker battery drawing down the other battery is solvable by utilizing the Battery selector switch but I do not like messing with it and prefer to keep it in the "Both" position. I am concerned that if I start fooling with the selector switch. When using the "Both" setting, that is, however, a perhaps inefficient way of utilizing the batteries for the case when one battery is weaker and then can draw down the other battery.

If one really wants the ideal dual battery setup, then you have to look into utilizing a battery isolator or a battery combiner. Those devices allow both batteries to be utilized but do not allow any cross-traffic between them.

Edited by - OLarryR on 08/13/2008 06:06:56

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2008 : 07:30:54

I put the batteries on the charger on Sunday morning. Sunday night around midnight I took them off, and let them sit.

Last night I picked up distilled water, and a turkey baster looking thing for filling the batteries.

This morning I checked voltage (with the multi-meter, first time using it!!) the batteries read around 12.4 V.

Filled the batteries with water to the bottom of the cup-looking things. One of the batteries took about 1.5 quarts of water, the other took 1/2 a quart. I used half of the gallon jug of distilled water. Then I rechecked volts. No change at all.

Put the charger on them again (at 2, its lowest setting) for about 20 minutes, and checked volts again - 12.8 and 12.7. Just for kicks I held the voltmeter on the terminals. While I sat there, I watched the battery drop by 0.2 volts. I'll check them again when I get home. I may stop and pick up a hygrometer just since the word keeps coming up when I check websites on this stuff. I think I will be buying a pair of new batteries in the end though.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 08/13/2008 : 09:56:19

I would not be surprised if some "settling" occurs when you first disconnect the charger from the battery. The charger is initiating a chemical process and that doesn't stop immediately. Dependent on what your batteries measure when you get home, and based on what you said here, they sound to me like there is still a lot of life left in them. You need to charge them more then 20 minutes if you added that much water to them. Long, slow charges are more beneficial then short, fast charges.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2008 : 10:27:55

Thanks Joe.

I'll check them when I get home, and then put them on again overnight. FWIW, I have 2 batteries hooked together with the charger set to 2 - its lowest setting.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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1883 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2008 : 10:41:51

Hi Steve, sorry about your battle with your batteries and charging equiptment, don't know what went wrong I'd just like to share what works for me.

I have two Cosco deep cycle wet cell Marine batteries connected to a Guest 1-ALL-2-OFF battery separator. This setup has been in operation for six years.

I run a 2005 Nissan electric start motor with alternator. I sail daily weather premitting. It takes 10/15 minutes to get to the bay and sailing, and another bout of motor charging to return to my slip.

I start the season with batteries maintained as you do with the exception that I charge the batteries with a Sears Smart Charger in the off season and check them once a month in the winter.

My boat was put in in May and the batteries haven't needed a charge yet. I run a marine radio and a stereo radio constantly while sailing with an occasional auto helmn break. Little night use.

Hope this helps.

Val on Calist # 3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2008 : 17:07:03

From the original post and question, my assessment is that you never properly charged your batteries. A small solar panel and the 2 A charger, even all winter, just ain't gonna do it.

I recommend considering a good shorepower charger, or find someone who has one, charge then equalize the batteries and you may find out they are just fine.

Read the Ample Power Primer at www.amplepower.com and learn what you need to know about how to keep batteries healthy.

Having had a C25 for 12 years and a larger boat for the past 10, I gotta admit I knew bupkis about batteries all the time I had my C25, and the level of information from this reference is something I wished I known about way back when...

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 08/13/2008 17:08:42

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