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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Lee Helm

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/24/2008 : 20:56:44

Help!!!!!

I can't seem to figure out the lee helm I've had problems with this year. I replaced my 110& jib with a 135% genoa. I still have the original main. I have the 3rd generation kickup rudder. (installed properly this year)

I have a real problem with significant lee helm. It seems to be worse in light wind but, I've been out so few times this season, I can't really say for sure. It just seems that the 135% is trying to push the bow sideways. It eases if if furl the sail a bit but, the purpose of buying the bigger sail was to have more canvas up in light air.

I've tried several combinations of tighter sheets (both main and genoa) looser sheets(both main and genny), tighter main, looser genny, looser main, tighter genny, etc. etc. Traveller to lee, traveller to windward. Can't seem to find the right combination.

What am I doing wrong?

John Russell
1999 C250 SR/WK #410
Bay Village, Ohio
Sailing Lake Erie
Don't Postpone Joy!

Edited by - John Russell on 07/24/2008 20:57:36

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2008 : 21:09:32

The 135 should reduce that from what you had with the 110 by moving the overall CE back a little. How about your mast rake? If you dangle the main halyard with something like a crescent wrench on the shackle, how far from the mast does it hang at boom height? Compare that with other C-250 owners here... No rake or forward rake suggests lee helm--aft rake should turn it to weather helm (what you want).

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/24/2008 21:12:45

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2008 : 21:35:51

Thanks, Dave. I'll measure the next trip out.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2008 : 07:58:01

Just don't let the halyard get away from you and up the mast! ...if you do, these two replies will vanish and I'll disavow everything!

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2008 : 09:42:54

Dave nailed it. You want 3-4" of mast rake (mast tilting backwards) which is set using the forestay and backstay.

Leehelm is dangerous. It will expose more sail to a gust and poses a knockdown danger.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 07/25/2008 09:43:51

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
843 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2008 : 00:45:51

John,

After you adjust your mast rake, one minor point is to twist the jib.
Move the jib cars all the way back.
This will flatten the foot of your jib and allow the top of the jib to luff.
The effect is to reduce the power of the jib.

Next, loosen your main outhaul.
This will give the main more draft and increase it's power.

Once your lee helm is fixed, then move you jib cars forward until the sail balance feels right.

Russ

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2008 : 11:56:07

Well, I went and measureed yesterday. had about 6" of aft rake. but, the wind was blowing pretty hard and I'm not sure how much was rake and how much was wind. My back stay seemed pretty loose. I could compress the split backstays about 2 -3 inches. (I know all you hi-tech guys are squirming with your Loos guages right now) So, I gave the old turnbuckle a few turns to tighten it up. Unfortunately, I couldn't sail after that so the test of cure will have to wait until tomorrow or Monday.

Russ, I'll pull the cars back more as well although, they're 2/3rds to the aft end of the track now.

Thanks, guys.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2008 : 12:48:51

6" sounds fine, based on my general experience (not including the C-250 specifically). Russ's suggestion is a good one... You can think of the "neutral" position roughly as an imaginary line extending from the sheet to the forestay such that the line is perpendicular to the stay. Forward of that "powers up" the jib by loosening the foot and tightening the leach... aft of that flattens the foot and, as Russ said, lets the top twist off. The question is whether a C-250 has a long enough track to go far enough aft with a 135. If not, that could explain your problem. Do you see the sail "cupping in" when trimmed fairly tightly? By that I mean a fairly straight leach, but the foot curving back in toward the boat, like a partial vertical cylinder. (Hmmmm... hard to verbalize...) That would do it.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/26/2008 13:01:53

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2008 : 16:34:46

Balance Balance Balance! Too much jib for your main? Too much main for your jib? IMHO the 250's are a bit overpowered when the wind passes 12 knots even with the standard jib. Balancing it so that it tracks straight will actually be faster than "feeling like your going faster" and constantly fighting the "round-up" and carving a series of big "C's" across the water. Measuring your speed between two points with a GPS will prove it to you!
Willy

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2008 : 22:35:58

Well, I think tightening the backstay did the trick. I still will tweak it a bit but I was pretty happy with the results I had tonight. 8-12 knot winds 10-15 degrees of heel 4-5 knots boat speed and a comfortable amount of weather helm. Well, mostly.

Willy, my next challenge is to improve sail balance. You're right, when it blows more than 10 knots, the C250 is a pretty tender boat.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2008 : 11:45:23

Many single handed Beer Can races and continually looking for a single instrument that gives information on maintaining speed with the boat in balance, has lead me to the following:
1. 10 - 18 degrees of heel = traveler up full main and jib(135).
2. Steady over 18 traveler down = reef main and full jib.
3. At 20 if cannot maintain with traveler down and sheet control =
reef jib to 110.
4. If still cannot maintain below 20 = second reef in main.
5. If still sailing at this point you and me both are nuts.

Edited by - frog0911 on 07/29/2008 11:46:49

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