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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

full vs partial batton mainsail

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captck
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/23/2008 : 13:14:47

I did a search and found little on forum.
Anyone had experience w/ both?
I'm buying a new main for 25 standard wing and all sorts are available.
Loose foot seems the new way to go but I'm not sure about full batton.
Sailing an inland lake. moderate winds - gusty due to hills.
Sail handling issues with both

Any recommendations?
CK

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2008 : 14:07:40

Loose foot is better in lighter air, captive foot is better in heavy air. The reason: it's easy to slack off the clew in light air and give the sail a big belly and hence, more power. In heavy air torquing the vang will cause the boom to arc downward, if the foot of the sail is captive, the sail will flatten, but if the foot is loose, the belly will not change. I have used a loose-footed mainsail for many years, to flatten in heavy air you have to wail on the cunningham and cinch the mainsheet down hard- hence you need to have a traveller that works well. For a captive foot sail, your vang is much more effective.

Fully-battened mainsail wins in all conditions. It can be trimmed to hold a nice shape even in zero mph wind, so it will keep you moving in the lightest conditions. The battens keep the draft exactly where you place it, so in gusty or heavy air conditions it is much easier to maintain trim and control.

I have a new main on order, it will be fully battened and, for the first time in many years, it will have a captive foot, the reason being that my preference is to sail in heavy air.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2008 : 14:50:42

Another opinion, I cannot imagine a boom deflecting due to a boom vang, (maybe on a racing dingy), a boom vang is intended to control the leech of the main. A loose footed main has no downside relative to the boom vang function. A sail is flattened by the interaction of the outhaul and the halyard tension, the Cunningham is used to move the pocket forward which also has a flattening effect on the aft section of the main. I think powerhead mains with full top battens and short lower battens are fine for hyper tweekers but I think most sailing a Catalina 25 will set an optimal shape for the conditions and leave the sail alone and a full batten main does just fine for those sailors. I think a full batten loose footed main is an excellent chioce for the Catalina 25.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2008 : 09:11:05

Mainsail twist is controlled by the traveler, except when you bear off the wind or sail downwind. When sailing off the wind, twist is controlled by the vang. When used in that way, there's never enough tension on the vang to pull the boom out of column. When sailing to windward, the traveler is used to control mainsail twist because, by being attached to the end of the boom, it creates more leverage, and it doesn't tend to pull the boom out of column. As a matter of practice, when sailing to windward I always adjust light pressure on the vang so that, if I bear off the wind, the vang will take over the task of holding the boom down, and I won't have to adjust it specifically for that purpose. It will already be adjusted, in advance.

I used a footed mainsail with a racing shelf foot for many years and loved it, but now have a loose-footed mainsail, and don't see any reason to go back. My initial concern was that, on the loose-footed mainsail, all the load is concentrated on the tack and the clew. There are no attachments along the foot to help share the load. What I have found, however, is that the load that is carried by the attachment along the foot is actually negligible.

A loose-footed mainsail can be flattened every bit as much as a footed one. I'm a very active racer, and most of the racers are using loose-footed sails. In 20-25 kt winds, we can easily flatten the mainsail as much as we need. In higher winds, you start thinking about tucking in a reef, in which case all the load is still being concentrated on the two reefing grommets. It isn't necessary to use the reef ties, but if you do, they aren't carrying any of the load and they don't add anything to the sail's flatness.

So far as battens are concerned, most of the sailmakers are now recommending that the two top battens on a masthead rigged boat be full, and the lower battens be partial. When I bought my new mainsail, I'm sure I asked North to explain why, but I don't specifically remember what they said. I believe, however, that, on a masthead rigged boat, full lower battens add considerable weight without helping the sail shape significantly. The two, full, upper battens establish the sail's overall shape, and the two lower battens just provide enough stiffness to permit the sail to have a big roach. In fact, I'm seeing a lot of laminated racing mainsails with only a full top batten, and all the rest are partials. IMHO, light air sailing is mostly a function of distribution of crew weight, and reduction of the boat's wetted surface.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/24/2008 10:30:13

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2008 : 18:48:24

The boom will always deflect if you torque the vang down hard in a blow. Next time your out in a strong wind, sight down your boom and you'll see it. Your spars are not as rigid as you think they are. But also, there will always be arguments as to which is better and whether or not a loose foot will flatten as well as a captive foot. And a loose-footed sail will always be easier to trim in light to moderate conditions. As I said before, I used loose-footed sails for many years and I'm on the wall myself as to whether or not one is better than the other.

Steve is correct about weight aloft, battens add weight, but so does sailcloth, so if you're concerned about weight aloft, you'll want to go with kevlar/mylar as it is considerably lighter than dacron.

There are trade-offs to be considered, for racers it would be: What can you do to reduce weight without reducing strength too much; Is it worth it to pay the replacement cost of sails that are considerably more expensive and have a useful life span of only a few years. For those who cruise, the answers are usually: I want a quality sail, that is easy to handle, that trims wll and will hold its shape reasonably well for a many years.

And yes, I used to race a lot and I also used to be a sailmaker and I'm also objective.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2008 : 07:54:02

CK. I'm surprised you couldn't find threads in the archives -- perhaps it's because the word is spelled batten, not batton. As a contributor to some of those threads, my impression is that folks who sail in consistently windy places, like SF Bay or Frank's Lake Cheney, tend to prefer all full battens because they need their mains a little more flat in the big winds. Those of us who sail in places like the Chesapeake, where winds are often light, prefer the ability to significantly deepen the draft of the main. I would suggest you talk to sailors in your area about their experience and preferences.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2008 : 08:30:11

This vang induced "boom bend" to flatten the main must be a closely guarded secret in the sailing community because I've never heard or read about it. With the advent of loose footed mains, one would think someone somewhere would have mentioned the loss of this adjustment?

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2008 : 08:52:02

The Pineapple sails site [an SF Bay Loft] has an interesting article regrding full vs partial battens.
They make very nice sails, guy in the next slip has 'em.

http://www.pineapplesails.com/

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Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2008 : 10:28:56

Loss of flattening of loose-footed sail by vang is not extreme, but it is enough that those who are aware of it are concerned it may degrade performance in extreme conditions, to the point where they may lose races over it. Those I talk with about it are on the fence as to whether it is enough of a factor to warrant going back to captive foot and thereby losing the benefits of loose-foot. I like to sail in extremem conditions, I enjoy the challenge, so I'm going back to captive foot on my Cat25. If I were going to race this boat, I would probably go with a loose foot, the vast majority of races do not occur in extreme conditions.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3442 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2008 : 11:26:37

Brooke,

Agree with your comment regarding checking for what wind conditions you normally have in your area to figure in the decision whether to go with full or partial battens. While, you probably can go either way in light wind conditions, I believe that going with partial battens probably would be more prevalent in light wind areas.
My sailing located in the northern Potomac River is similar to your Chesapeake area and probably I have even lighter winds on the average. I had a whole debate over this full/partial batten thing with Quantum when i bought my sails this past winter. As it turns out, i went the partial batten route. The top batten is full and the others are partial. However, partial battens come in different lengths or at least it seems that way. My other battens, while partial, are much longer than the partial battens on my original sails.

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captck
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2008 : 12:30:27

Good feedback!
I have sailed every summer on the Chesapeake and understand the lighter winds there. (not on my C 25) Our lake is very similar. I think I will try the 2 full battens on top with partial below design with a loose foot. I have waited long enough to replace the original 20 yr old main.
Thanks for response
Capt K

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2008 : 15:02:54

Here's a tip on battens: You can pull the draft further forward in your main by tapering the battens. Most battens come in uniform thickness end-to-end. Use an electric sander to thin the battens, start about 30% and work your way forward. You'll probably have to do them a few times to get the sail shape just the way you want, but the results will be positive; your helm will be better balanced and consequently you'll move faster.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2008 : 10:01:05

Larry and Capt.K: My Doyle main has two full battens at the top, two partials at the bottom, and a loose foot. That was Jim Scott's, of Scott Sails, recommendation. It works really well for me.

And, Larry, you can consider yourself a Chesapeake sailor -- you're in the aquatic and meteorological system!

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