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Melting lead for ballast

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Initially Posted - 07/05/2008 : 17:57:48

A couple of months ago a guy on Craigslist was selling lead for $0.65/lb, which is a pretty good deal considering lead as a commodity has quadrupled in price in the past couple of years. I'd been looking into lead shot, but they wanted roughly $2/lb for it! Then I thought about recovered lead shot from shooting ranges, that must be cheaper, huh? $1.29/lb, minimum 500lbs, and they don't clean the dirt from it, that's part of the package, and weight. Anyway, this guy had about 300 pounds of lead for sale, from old tire weights his dad had melted down over the years. I'd wanted to get rid of the three bags of sand in the bow since I bought the boat, and lead seemed the ideal way to go. Smallest footprint for it's weight, etc. Make more storage room under the v-berth.

When I got the lead, it had been casted by pouring successive layers of lead on top of the previous layer, so when I tried to pound the edges round to keep from scarring up the inside of the hull, what I got was flakes of lead popping off, and lots more edges. So I decided to melt them down & make new ballast "limpets" or pan-shaped ingots. I borrowed one of Rita's good cast iron pans (which we're going to replace now, don't want to chance lead contamination), put it on my outdoor cooking ring, and cranked up the flame. I really had no idea how long it'd take to melt each brick, but it turned out to be around 10-12 minutes at full power. For safety, I had an extinguisher, safety glasses, leather gloves, powerful fan, and a good respirator. While the lead was melting, I'd direct the fan up into my face so it was blowing away any fumes from the lead, and while it was cooling, I'd direct the fan over the whole works to help it cool & set into shape.

Here's the procedure:
Warm up cast iron pan (I've read that aluminum will not work, it's melting temp is too close to lead's). Set the pan so that it's level as best you can, once you have 40 lbs of lead in there it's not so easy to re-level. Put the lead in, 40 lbs seems to be about the limit of what I could handle comfortably. Move a fair distance away and stand upwind so the fumes aren't blowing over you.

Have ready a coffee can or something similar to scrape slag into with a strainer spoon you don't want any more. You also need some sort of flat bladed stick for scraping the slag along the top of the molten lead. The stick seems to work better for getting the little bits than the straining spoon does, the bits just seem to flow through the spoon.

As the lead starts to melt, start paying attention to the amount of heat you've got going into the works, you don't want to get the lead boiling. I found that as soon as I could start moving the lead chunk with my stick, it was time to start reducing the fire. This seemed to work about perfect. This is probably 8 minutes or so into the process, there's still a definite shape to the lead block, but it's sitting in a pool of molten lead that's covered the complete bottom of the pan.

Now's the time to start scraping away the slag, I was amazed by how much came out from some of the pieces including chunks of wood from the original molds (I think). The nice thing is that pretty much everything floats in lead, so it's easy to get stuff to the top. Make sure to scrape the bottom of the pan to get all the little bits up off of the bottom. Scrape as much slag as you can so you'll have a nice clean top surface. Now's the time to make sure the pot's as level as it can be, carefully position the pan to level the lead in it, and turn off the heat. Position the fan so it's directed across the pan to start the cooling process. I have a high velocity fan, and it would reliably "cool" the pan to where it could be handled in about 10 minutes.

Once the pan is "cool" (IE the lead is solid when you tap it with your stick, but it's still screaming hot, don't make the mistake of thinking you can touch it), pick a good spot to cool it down to safe-to-handle temps that's very close (you don't want to have it in your hands for more than a second or two). Quickly move it to this spot (I was using my driveway) and set it back down. Pull your gloves off quickly because they're about to try to burn you.

Now comes probably the most dangerous part, which you can actually just leave to time if you're not in any hurry or don't want to bother with the safety aspects. To cool the pan, I would dribble water on the driveway above the pan and let it run slowly down towards the pan. You get little steam explosions wherever it hits, but this will quickly slow down. Once the pan's happy and simply steaming, you can gingerly start to splash tiny bits of water directly onto the lead itself. Go slowly here, or you'll get unpleasant steam explosions as the water gets trapped between the pan & the lead. I had this happen on my first one when I got a bit enthusiastic with the water. Go slowly, just spray water on the lead till it stops vaporising instantly. When this happens you can start to put a bit more water on the lead, listen for popping sounds, if you hear them, take a step back & let the water that's already on the lead continue to cool. What you're hearing are the steam explosions, give the water time to do it's job. Once the popping stops, you can be more vigorous with the water, and usually within a minute or so, you can simply flood the pan with water. Then it's just a matter of popping the new ingot out of the pan and getting ready for the next one. I found that I could do an ingot per thirty minutes or so. I finished eight of them for a total of 281 pounds in around four hours.

I can't find my camera, I took a few pictures so I'll post them later.

My plan is to mount them in the bow with 3M's VHB (very high bond) double sided tape, I'm reasonably sure that will keep them in place.

I discovered this morning that with all the bow ballast out of the boat, the trailer tongue is so light the whole thing will tilt up with my weight on the boarding ladder. That was exciting. I put the biggest lead ingot on the trailer tongue to prevent that until I get them mounted.

David
C-250 Mainsheet Editor

Sirius Lepak
1997 C-250 WK TR #271 --Seattle area Port Captain --

Edited by - delliottg on 07/05/2008 18:11:07

britinusa
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Response Posted - 07/05/2008 : 18:49:17

Great description David. So about how big is a 40lb limpet?

Paul

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2008 : 19:59:33

Here are a couple of pictures. For scale, the wood these are sitting on are 2x12's:

I'd estimate 10" diameter by 2" high or so?.

Edited by - delliottg on 07/05/2008 20:01:20

SCnewbie
Navigator

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Response Posted - 07/05/2008 : 21:50:06

AS someone who is around molten steel daily, let me caution to make sure you are careful if you attempt this, especially when spraying water. The instructions given are pretty good I just want to make sure no one sprays water on the lead when it is molten. If the water gets under the metal somehow while the metal is liquid, the water will flash boil and cause little steam bubbles(or big steam bubbles.) The little explosions will shoot molten lead in all directions. Also, that slag is probably considered hazardous material so dispose of it accordingly. Make sure some kid can't get ahold of it.

Edited by - SCnewbie on 07/06/2008 12:54:49

delliottg
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Response Posted - 07/05/2008 : 22:13:38

Good point, I forgot to mention that you do NOT want to be doing this around water like if it's raining. I always made sure that I could tap the surface of the lead w/o making any type of dent with my scraping stick before attempting to move the pan. I also always made sure that the leftover water in the pan after cooling the last ingot was completely dried up by the flame before putting the next chunk of lead in for melting. To be completely safe, probably the best way to cool the lead is time. You can see the difference in the surface when you do this on the 47lb ingot (2nd from left, top row), that one I allowed to cool while eating lunch. All the rest were water cooled as I described and have a shinier appearance, I'm not sure what the difference is.

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Stardog
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Response Posted - 07/07/2008 : 11:13:47

Yes, the slag is poisonous, so be sure to dispose of it properly. The fumes are also poisonous, so wear a gasmask. :)

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 07/08/2008 : 11:38:18

I don't understand. Why would you want 200 lbs of lead ballast in the bow of a C-25? With our swing keel down, it is already bow heavy, if you go by the waterline stripe.

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 07/08/2008 : 11:59:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 I don't understand. Why would you want 200 lbs of lead ballast in the bow of a C-25? With our swing keel down, it is already bow heavy, if you go by the waterline stripe.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">He has a C250, not a C25. They tend to squat pretty badly. I have 200Lbs of rocks under my V berth and it still squats when I climb aboard.. Shhh don't tell my Doctor..

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 07/08/2008 : 12:00:24

David G has a '97 C250 which needs the weight in the bow to make it even on its lines.

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redviking
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Response Posted - 07/08/2008 : 13:04:10

WOW! I am very impressed! That is cool! Not sure I like anything about it from a safety perspective, including the affixing of the ballast to the hull. I would bolt it down somehow. I am also shocked that this design feature has not been remedied by a water ballast system or SOMETHING! Wow again!

the finished product looks great! Nice job!

OK, so back to my point - why is this a problem? Why in the bow? That much weight to compensate for the engine I assume? Quite frankly, sand may have been a better idea. If those things start flopping around for any reason, you'll have a hole in your hull and way bigger problems. That been said, very cool - I'm thinking 9,000 lbs of lead on Lysistrata isn't enough. Can you melt me like two 500 lb chunks I can bolt to the keel?

sten

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redviking
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Response Posted - 07/08/2008 : 13:12:07

Oh and ROCKS! Hello, I know my ancestors used to use rocks for ballast, (hence my name - Sten means stone in Danish and variations exist in other Nordic languages) but they were not on a Catalina 250! One good gust and half them rocks are gonna pound the leeward side. If this is modern technology, we've just rolled back more than like 300 years! Where is Bill Butler? I gotta have a discussion about this!

sten

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 07/08/2008 : 13:30:01

No worries, Sten. They're quite securely packed garden stones. They're the easiest to transport in their 40Lb bags.

You're right, though. This is an issue that some marine engineer somewhar shoulda oughta solved by now.

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Stardog
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Response Posted - 07/08/2008 : 17:09:51

Mising lead shot and epoxy is a commonly used method of making ballast. Line the area to hold the ballast with something to keep the epoxy from sticking, pour in the required weight of lead shot, mix epoxy and pour it in. Mix the epoxy and shot and let it set up. You have an ingot which can be removed if necessary and will not shift much if at all. Be sure to carefully follow directions for mixing epoxy, if you get it wrong it can heat up and catch fire.

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delliottg
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Response Posted - 07/08/2008 : 17:56:39

The 200 lbs is to compensate for the new heavier engine, plus it's further back, plus my butt makes the boat squat even more when I'm sitting back there. I had 75 lbs of sand before, and if I went forward to do any work, the old engine was sputtering. Even though the new one's lower due to the bracket, I still wanted some insurance. Hopefully with more ballast overall, the boat'll ride lower in general so my moving around won't make so much of a difference.

I replaced the sand with lead because it's smaller & takes up less space so I have more storage room in the V-berth space. Given my choice, I'd have gone with lead shot, but I couldn't find any at a reasonable price, and I don't have a shot tower to make it with. In hindsight, I wish I'd have made the limpets smaller, they are hard to get into the boat, hard to maneuver once there, and hard to stick down. Right now we've got them double-stick taped down (3M VHB tape), but I plan to foam adhesive them from the bottom as well so they're resting on something firm-ish as well as adhered along as much of their bottoms as possible. I think if I were to do it again, I'd make the limpets in big muffin pans instead. Harder to make because there's more handling of molten lead, but easier to deal with inside the boat.

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Stardog
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Response Posted - 07/08/2008 : 18:14:25

Foam sounds like it would be a good idea, stick 'em down and foam 'em so they won't wander. No loose cannons!... er Limpets :)

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 07/08/2008 : 20:35:18

I like Sten's idea of water ballast. 25 gallons would get you the 200 pounds and it could be added or subtracted as needed with a small pump. Fill up before you go out and then pump the water out while washing down the boat when your done. It could be used for extra water or a shower while on an extended cruise. You also wouldn't have to worry about knocking a whole in the bottom of the boat if things got rough.

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/08/2008 : 22:13:38

Some have done the extra water tank. It does take up more room. I use 275lbs of rock. Put it there over a year ago and it hasn't budged.

I believe the issue is heavier 4 stroke motors, wheel steering hardware, and for me, an extra battery in the aft. With the added bow weight the boat sits and performs very nicely. No big deal.

By the way, one of our members did ask Frank Butler and was told that there is no problem and the ballast is not needed. Some C250WKers do not use the ballast and say they are fine without it. So, it is a personal call.

I've lost 35lbs in the last four months so maybe I can remove a bag.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 07/08/2008 22:32:47

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 07/08/2008 : 23:08:07

Thanks for the explanations, everyone. Congratulations, Randy, on losing the 35 lbs. I'm up from 20 to 60 lengths in the YMCA pool 3 days a week, but I've lost only 10 lbs. Feels really good when I finish the swim.

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Tom Potter
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Response Posted - 07/09/2008 : 17:18:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 I like Sten's idea of water ballast. 25 gallons would get you the 200 pounds and it could be added or subtracted as needed with a small pump. Fill up before you go out and then pump the water out while washing down the boat when your done. It could be used for extra water or a shower while on an extended cruise. You also wouldn't have to worry about knocking a whole in the bottom of the boat if things got rough.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I had sand bags and replaced them with a large water bladder I got from Britnusa. Added a wash down pump and ran the water outlet to the stern. Nice for washing down the boat, motor and taking showers.

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redviking
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Response Posted - 07/09/2008 : 22:49:38

I'm still not understanding the obvious design flaw... My C25 never needed ballast! Like that! Holy snickers... removable ballast sounds the most seaworthy to me,,, I like Tom Potters solution best. Just remember, Ballast belongs in the keel, anywhere else and it comes loose, you'll have a hull pinned to the water or worse... Even water ballast could affect stability if not properly affixed.

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - Newport, RI

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 07/10/2008 : 07:41:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 I'm still not understanding the obvious design flaw... My C25 never needed ballast! Like that! Holy snickers...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Those adding ballast to the bow, to improve sailing performance, are C250 owners.

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redviking
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Response Posted - 07/10/2008 : 12:37:27

understood.... but why? what changed? That is the part I don't understand. I know the hull shape changed slightly, but where is the design change that caused filling the v-berth with a few hundred pounds of anything? Why didn't Bill Butler leave well enough alone? This does not sound like an improvement! No? I'm gonna have to go back to school to become a marine architect.... geez, this in my opinion - which is what it is - the most ass backwards thing I have ever known about the 250... And to think I used to complain about a lack of proper chocks! LOL!

sten

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 07/10/2008 : 13:21:56

I suspect Frank & Co. minized the weight for trailering, placed the keel for proper CLR (which they apparently blew on the WB model), and didn't account for the US "market", if you know what I mean.

(I don't think a couple dozen extra pounds in the engine is the difference.) Indeed the ballast has to stay in place, even during a broach--otherwise it can contribute the the problem and prevent righting. It's like a water ballast tank that MUST be completely filled or empty--half full seriously destabilizes the boat.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/10/2008 13:23:30

delliottg
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Response Posted - 07/10/2008 : 14:47:34

All of the evidence that I've read so far [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18151"]has been empirical[/url], guys who add weight to the bow of their 250s report better handling, punching through waves instead of popping over them, etc. I haven't seen any authoritative reports to actually quantify the need for the weight. However, I plan to keep mine in the bow.

I think Dave might have a point, Frank & Co didn't allow for the enhanced broadness of the beam of the the American adult. Fortunately in my case Rita makes up for my broad beam by being very petite, and Malaysian, so hopefully that helps out the equation.

Edited by - delliottg on 07/10/2008 14:56:29

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/10/2008 : 17:36:18

I have found that if you want to know why something works it is wise to search the archives to see what Arlyn Stewart has to say about the topic. I believe he knows more about the C250, and small boats in general, than anyone else I am familiar with. Here are his observations about why ballast in the bow of a C250 improves handling.

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/cause_of_weather_helm.html"]Ballast & Weather Helm[/url]

Edited by - Nautiduck on 07/10/2008 17:37:17

Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 07/10/2008 : 19:43:08

So I should divorce and marry a petite Malaysian? I think it would be less expensive to change the boat altogeher. ;-)

But seriously, Frank & Co. probably designed the CLR of the C250 with the drinking water compartment full? My potable water tank is empty. So without the additional ballast you guys use + the potable tank empty I'm pretty light up front ain't I?

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 07/10/2008 19:46:13

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