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too windy for your dock lines?

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/05/2008 : 08:41:52

Today is supposed to be constant in the low thirties (not that odd), with sustained gusts in the mid to upper forties, (that is the kicker). These are the days where those who do not leave their boats well tied up and put away properly find the error of their ways. We have discussed how people leave their boats before, from halyard slap to docklines, to rigging tension; I use hardened docklines with a hardened rig to reduce effects of weather.
Many use loose lines which allow the boat to "yank" around in the slip. How do you leave your boat?

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 06/05/2008 08:42:40

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 10:10:31

Can't harden 'em here... the tide will try to hang or sink the boat, unless you have floating fingers on both sides. My stern line off a piling to starboard is made to the port cleat to reduce the angle change with the tide, and a long spring line does the same. All others are from the floating dock and are just loose enough to accommodate those changes.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 10:25:18

You can harden your docklines if you have floating docks, but, if the docks or pilings are fixed, and you keep it on tidal waters, you have to loosen your docklines, so the boat can rise and fall with the tides without the boat being hung by its docklines, or submerged by them.

On the Chesapeake Bay, my docklines are very loose, and, even in a major storm with a lot of surge, they need little or no adjustment. I'm very lucky that my slip is extremely well sheltered, and my boat can remain in its slip, with doubled lines, through a hurricane. Even then it doesn't yank around or come up short on it's docklines. In fact, it rides so quietly that I could continue to stay on it during a hurricane, if I weren't such a chicken.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 10:34:52

Our lines are somehere between hardened and loose. We run four lines including a spring line. All but the spring line have snubbers to help absorb shock. Our club requires at least four lines and all, except spring lines, must have snubbers. Our docks float. I do not use regular fenders but instead have placed - for the season - three large round fenders along the slip. Not having to put up and take down fenders each sail is a real time saver and the large round fenders provide excellent protection. We also have lined all of the slip with rubber dock trim.

We had a storm blow through about a month ago. At the public marina nearby many cleats were ripped out of the docks. Those cleats were not through-bolted. Our are. It doesn't matter how good your lines are if the cleat on the dock - or your boat - fails.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3440 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 11:58:32

My lines are hardened. I have a floating finger slip and dock. We just went thru heavy winds a week ago and again last night. Knocked down a bunch of trees in my neighborhood and back of my property. My neighbor had a tree fall from the woods and his A/C unit took a direct hit !

I was planning on changing my old dock lines. I have the new ones sitting inside the boat for the last year or so (where they do no good).

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 12:12:51

I learned my "hardened dockline" lesson very early in my sailing career when I went down to the boat after a storm and discovered my boat hanging from the dock after the water level had dropped about 2'. I had to cut the lines to free the boat. From then on, my lines are well slackened.

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 12:31:09

We double up Dave's stern line (cross both to allow for tide and push off a bit since we're docked stern-in and the dock is solid down to the waterline, need to keep the rudder off the dock), run one long spring line from fwd piling to mid-ship and leave the bow line loose (allows the bow to get to within two feet of the opposite piling. Storm coming, I add another spring line in the other direction. Bad storm, double up the stern (un-crossed this time). Hurricane? double up the bow and add a dockline from the actual dock to the mast base (our marina guy does the last one for you if you don't, I go with the flow). By now we are up to 11 lines (some of which are way-over-sized, the PO had an eclectic collection) for a 4600# boat, if it's going anywhere it is being dragged there by the dock.

Reminds me of a picture I saw after one of the bad Florida hurricanes. There was a sailboat laying on its side on top of the dock and laying on top of the boat were the three outside pilings they had (and were still) tied to. Moral of the story? You worry about keeping your 4600# in place and from rubbing. Not about the point where the "permanent" structures are on the go.

Edited by - ilnadi on 06/05/2008 12:33:06

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 14:29:53

Frank, I am in SoCal and Piseas II is in a slip. We have received memos from the marina manager to have slack on dock lines due to tides level changes otherwise if lines hardened, much stress put on dock cleats and probably on Piseas II as well.
Steve A

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 15:13:34

I'm on a floating pier system, 2 boats between fingers, and we are usually bow-in to the slip. We keep the lines fairly tight, using 2 bow lines, a spring line and one stern line.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 17:05:29

I'm on a floating dock and have nine lines on the boat...two on each bow/stern cleat and an extra on one of the stern cleats...to be sure the opposite side does not hit the dock!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 18:14:54

Our Tornado Sirens are sounding and they had 85 mph just south of my boat. If there weren't so many trees in our neighborhood I would take some pictures. Kansas weather is fun, I hope those North of us have a safe night.

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 20:49:07

Hey Frank,

My uncle used to live in Kansas, it's a wonderful place. I live just outside Austin, TX and my boat is on Lake Travis. Generally I leave the boat with four docklines, snug but not taut, they are triple braid lines so they are bouncy. When heavy weather comes in I add two spring lines, one on each side, also of triple braid and very tight to keep the boat from bouncing into the sides or end of the slip.

We do get some extremely heavy winds when super cells come through. I went to the boat one time to tie 'er down and decided to stay and watch the show. When the heaviest part of the storm hit I had to get in the v-berth and brace myself in to keep from being beaten and bruised. At the times I was able to go peer out of the portlights I couldn't see the boats in the slips on either side of me, due to the intensity of the wind and rain. It was not what I expected when I went down there, considering this is an inland lake and it was a sheltered marina. The boat did not suffer any damage. As a matter of fact, the only time I've suffered storm damage was when the finger pier between my boat and my neighbor's boat broke away.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 22:47:32

We're nose in in a two to a slip floating dock system. The 43 footer next to me has a spring line near my bow, and I have one near his on my port side. We use a bow & stern line, as well as two spring lines fore & aft on the starboard side, and then use the port spring line on our mid-ship's cleat to pull us away from the dock. We don't use snubbers or bungees, there doesn't seem to be a need. The last thing I do before walking away from the boat is shove and pull it in all directions to make sure it can't hit or get close to anything. So far so good. We're also relatively sheltered.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 04:55:59

Hey Stardog,

I've got many a mile on Lake Travis. It's my favorite lake. Unfortunately I was cursed with being born and raised in Houston but would like to retire somewhere North and West of Austin.

I spent most of last summer including on my honeymoon looking for a C25 to purchase on Lake Travis. At the time there were none to be found. What marina are you in?

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 08:12:13

It's tidal here in Daytona with fixed docks so I have a stern, bow and two spring lines. The dual spring lines allow for a loose tie and still pretty restricted movement.

Frank, I didn't know you had sustained 30+ yesterday but saw the tornado warnings yesterday evening (ET) and thought about you. I think I'd rather deal with a hurricane every so often.

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 11:52:13

Yeah, no tidal here, though the lake is part of a flood control system, so the water can fluctuate many feet from year to year. But the people who run the marinas are responsible for maintaining the proper trim on the docks, so we don't have to worry, except in a flood situation, where deadmen can be dragged if someone is too slow on giving slack. This is Central Texas and flooding is just part of life.

Hey Gary! My sister lives in Spring just north of Houston and I love Kemah and the whole Clear Lake area, it has a really nice maritime feel to it and more sailboats than I've ever seen anywhere else. My boat is at Commander's Point on Lake Travis, though I've had it variously at Riviera Marina, Emerald Point Marina and Keller's Landing. If you would like I can keep an eye out for any Catalina 25s that come up for sale here.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 21:39:09

Stardog,

I bought an '89 SR/WK last October so I'm no longer in the market for a boat but I am in the market for a trailer for a C25 wing keel. I believe a swing keel trailer could be easily modified to handle the wing keel. If you run across a GOOD one let me know. I'm not looking for someone elses junk.

I hit all of the marina's you mentioned above plus Marshall Ford and several others.

Supposedly the Houston/Galveston area has the highest concentration of sailboats in the country.

I know what you mean about Travis being part of a flood control system. I've spent many summers at Travis and have seen it high and low.

If I remember correctly last spring (2007) the lake was down close to 40 feet and later refilled in a matter of a couple of weeks.

A couple of months later it rose well into flood stage.

Here's a picture of the lake full on June 3, 2007 (681.16' MSL)

and here's a picture of the lake 19' higher (700.86' MSL) on July 4, 2007.

Here's a picture of the swimming pool at 700.19' MSL.

The water on the flag pole is about 5' deep in the second photo and almost 6' deep at the pool in the third photo!

Edited by - GaryB on 06/06/2008 22:09:07

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2008 : 15:04:39

A lot of lines with a lot of scope. Even without tide we still get storm surge inside our basin - Hard dock lines can cause issues.

Make sure you have backing plates on your dock cleats too.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2008 : 21:12:00

A little loose on the Portage River and Lake Erie. Heavy rain impacts the river and outflow from the upper lakes impacts Erie; the combination added to wind pushing water in or out can change water level by 1 -2 feet fairly quickly. Two bow lines, one stern, and fore and aft springs keep me settled.

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2008 : 11:15:35

Hey Gary,

Yeah, I live almost straight across the lake from where those photos were taken. The pictures were taken from the club house at the Austin Yacht Club, I recognize because I used to race there. The white bar on the flagstaff is the high water mark from the Christmas flood of 1991. I don't remember what the water level was, but a friend and I sailed down to Mansfield Dam and we could see over the spillway. It was quite scary. I've been told by the old timers that there was one other flood where the water came up even higher, but I haven't found any articles or information about it.

We were out sailing here both Saturday and Sunday, at one point the wind was so strong we were under reefed main alone and still heeling heavily and moving at hull speed. That mainsail is showing its age and won't last much longer, I'm really glad I have a new one on the way. One of my sailing friends was out Friday and said he clocked 40 mph on his annemometer.

I'll keep my eyes open for a trailer for you!

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2008 : 20:17:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stardog
 Hey Gary,

The white bar on the flagstaff is the high water mark from the Christmas flood of 1991. I don't remember what the water level was, but a friend and I sailed down to Mansfield Dam and we could see over the spillway. It was quite scary.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Stardog,

I heard about some guys that sailed up to the spillway during that flood. Supposedly they almost got the mast hung up under the road above the spillway while several people were on one side of the boat looking over the spillway. I guess I know who that might have been now!

Considering that the pool elevation during this flood was 710.4' and the streambed elevation is approx. 485' that's only a 225.4' drop if you go over the spillway! I guess that could make you a bit scared when looking over the spillway

You can find a lot of info about what's going on around all of the Highland Lakes at this site -->> http://www.lcra.org/water/index.html

BTW, that was the flood of record for Lake Travis!

DETAILS ON LAKE TRAVIS 
Elevation when full: 681 feet above mean sea level (msl)
Volume when full: 1,131,650 acre-feet
Historic high: 710.4 feet above msl on Dec. 25, 1991
Historic low: 614.2 feet above msl on Aug. 14, 1951
Normal operating range: at or below 681 feet above msl
Spillway elevation: 714 feet above msl
100-year flood level at dam: 716 feet above msl
500-year flood level at dam: 728.5 feet above msl
Top of dam: 750 feet above msl

Edited by - GaryB on 06/09/2008 20:32:15

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 11:30:17

It definitely gave me the willies to be that close to the spillway, it would be a helluva ride down the other side! The dam, the water, the ground, all were shaking from the incredible amount of water blowing out the flood gates. It was quite scary and I wouldn't do it again- once was enough for me.

Incidentally, they closed the lake to boating the next morning and it's policy now to do so. Two reasons; snags and other dangerous debris in the water, and power boats throwing wakes through the windows of flooded homes.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 12:40:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stardog
 It definitely gave me the willies to be that close to the spillway, it would be a helluva ride down the other side! The dam, the water, the ground, all were shaking from the incredible amount of water blowing out the flood gates. It was quite scary and I wouldn't do it again- once was enough for me.

Incidentally, they closed the lake to boating the next morning and it's policy now to do so. Two reasons; snags and other dangerous debris in the water, and power boats throwing wakes through the windows of flooded homes.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yeah, I went down to water level along the bank below the dam during that flood to watch the water being released from the floodgates and it was spectacular! The waves were probably 10 - 15 high where the fast moving water exiting the dam hit the slower water of the river. If I remember correctly they had 14 floodgates opened and for a while the lake was still rising.

I went up to Marble Falls 7 or 8 years ago during another flood on Lake LBJ and they had all of the floodgates on Wirtz Dam opened. When I got up to the top of the dam there was a 19' Wellcraft powerboat floating down the lake that had broken free from where it was docked. I got there just in time to see it get sucked through one of the floodgates! The only thing that came out the other side was about a 2' X 2' piece of the bow. I was told that shortly before I got there a 10' X 20' boat dock with cover went through the dam also. You could hear all kinds of things banging against the steel floodgates.

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2008 : 18:22:01

Dang! It give me a great respect for the power of nature. I can imagine what it was like around here before all of the flood control dams were built.

Edited by - on

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