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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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The age-old traveller question...

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Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/03/2008 : 14:49:33

I've searched the forums and couldn't find any real discussion on travellers, so I thought I would start a thread. I have an '84 Catalina 25 with the short traveller mounted to the transom. I have never been fond of the arrangement; it moves the CE of the mainsail further aft than I like and it makes it a challenge to maintain a good, flat shape on any point of sail, except close hauled, when the wind is blowing hard. Also, it doesn't have great hardware, so it's hard to trim it in a blow. I'm wondering if the newer boats have a better traveller and if not, what are other sailors doing to improve this bit of rigging? I've used this thing for so long I'm used to it, but when other sailors are on board they are at a loss and I have to jump in and trim it for them. I could definitely do with a better setup.

"It was like that when I got here..."
C-25, 1984, Hull #4697, FK, TR

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 14:53:34

Do you have a vang? And do you race--class or PHRF?

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/03/2008 14:55:36

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 15:20:07

As Dave alluded to, due to the limitations of the traveller, it is necessary to employ vang-sheeting to control leech tension.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 15:20:09

I also have an '84 C-25 with the same traveler set up. For the past 20 years I have always just left it centered and applied Vang tension and out-haul to shape up the main. This year I am experimenting with the the traveler again in some race conditions to see if it will improve performance and pointing in some specfic wind conditions; but I doubt that it will make much difference most of the time. If you participate in one design races the class rules demand that you leave the traveler on the transom but you can purchace a better style of traveler with more efficient hardware.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 15:20:37

Look in the C25 Tech Tips and click on the bimini to see my bridgedeck setup. It works for me. I don't race, but the local PHRF measurer said he wouldn't adjust my rating based on the modification.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 16:00:18

Don't know how my answer to the fuel tank question ended up on the traveller post.

The C25 traveller stock is virtually useless. I have mine rewired so it is easier to use. You can get some twist in the sail by easing the mainsheet and trimming with the traveller, but the amount of trim you can apply is very limited.

I race PHRF not in the Nationals so I would really like to install a real traveller on the coachroof.

Edited by - JimB517 on 06/04/2008 11:22:11

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 16:20:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 My 1978 will be 30 years old this October and has not blown up yet. I even had an electrical fire in the port lazerette while about 10 miles offshore. I carry a 7 gallon Honda fuel tank on the step in the lazerette and when cruising I keep a seperate 3 gallon tank on the floor of the lazerette. Both are well secured with solid rubber bungee cords. I also carry 10 more gallons in the V Berth when on a very long trip.

Its a design flaw no doubt, there are many on this boat (bow lights, wires glassed into the decks, aluminum spreader sockets, weak rudder, port list, leaky windows).

While you can fix most of the flaws, there is not much you can do about the gas tank unless you want to set it in the cockpit under the rudder. I don't really have a problem with fumes unless I am gassing up. The trick here is to remove the tank from the boat.

Check your fuel line and fittings often, don't let any gas leak in the lazerette, keep the lid open to help ventilate.

Its not something I worry a lot about. Now the rudder letting go in a blow, that is another story.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
And this helps to trim your mainsail how

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 16:31:45

Hee-hee, Jim! I guess you posted that one to the wrong thread

I do use a vang, but the best scenario for going to weather is to set your sail shape and hold it that way, using your traveller to manage lifts and headers. It's a lot more work to continually trim your mainsheet and vang and doing so makes it hard to keep your head out of the cockpit.

I'll check out your setup Brooke, a bridge would be a nice option and I'm all for mods that don't screw up your rating.

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 17:02:04

Oh, Dave, sorry I didn't answer your question before: I used to race, both class and PHRF, but I haven't in years. I would like to keep the boat close enough to original that I wouldn't be dinged on rating if I decide to race again. I have 2/1 outhaul, 5/1 vang, 3/1 cunningham, 5/1 mainsheet. The sail is loose-footed so 2/1 on the outhaul is easy to manage.

Looks like a nice setup Brooke; easy to manage and comfortable too. A logical extension would be to lift it just a bit and extend it to the coaming on either side. That would be ideal, but would compromise comfort. I really like the traveller forward, but my hatch doors would not open very easily. Another option would be an arch, but that would have to be attached to the cabin top and would preclude lifting the poptop. Most racing boats put the traveller dead center of the cockpit, across the seats, from side to side and your shins be damned.

I don't mind having the traveller when I'm racing, but for cruising I would prefer otherwise.

I just found this in the class rules:

"2. Travelers must remain on the transom and will be limited so that the mainsheet attachment point may not travel past the point at which the factory installed traveler bar intersected the transom. No rope or wire travelers will be permitted."

Has anyone installed a new traveller on the transom, one that is extended further on either side than the original? I guess you could extend it, then put a limiter on it when racing, I think that would make the boat compliant.

Edited by - on

andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 17:41:57

The best thing I've added to my C25 is a new traveler. I located the track all the way across the cockpit in front of the companionway and relocated the bale directly over it on the boom. It's all Harken with a windward sheeting car. I hated the stock set up for a variety of reasons, the main one being it worked poorly and I got tired of the main sheet ripping my hat and sunglasses off in an unintentional jibe. I like to control the tiller with my aft hand and the main sheet with the forward... The boat is much more comfortable to sail and the traveler works as it should.

Basically, the stock set up really sucks.

I haven't found stepping over the track to enter the cabin an issue at all. I think Catalina designed the boat and added the factory traveler as an after thought.

I've kept the stock set up so if I ever decide to race the boat at the nationals, I can switch it back in 5 minutes. I think relocation should be allowed for class racing as a safety issue if nothing else. It's not an expensive modification.

I recommend this addition to everyone...you'll be a

sailor!

regards,

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 05:28:49

Agreed. The stock traveller is less than adequate, but it is fairly easy to compensate for its lack of travel by using, as I stated earlier, vang sheeting. Vang sheeting allows you to use the vang for leech tensioning with the mainsheet being used to position the boom. I have a 6:1 vang that is flipped (Thanks Brooke) which makes it a whole lot easier to adjust. In higher winds, such as this past weekend, I employed judicious use of the vang to keep the sail flat while going to weather. For most of the day, I set the vang tightly and simply left it there.

Releasing the traveller before a tack also makes things easier.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 06:05:46

Again, I don't race, but insisting that the traveler stay on the transom just seems silly to me. I assume it applies to C25 races, not PHRF races. My traveler setup is no wider than the stock traveler, but a whole lot more comfortable and useful.

I think Andy's solution is elegant: put the traveler wherever the heck you want it, but keep the old one for class racing and for the next owner.

On my setup, you do have to dodge the mainsheet a little passing through the companionway. On the other hand, the mainsheet is a convenient grab handle when coming up from below.

Edited by - Even Chance on 06/04/2008 06:06:36

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 07:06:40

So if the class rules limit the location of the traveller, do they limit its length? If you were to put a track across the transom would it be limited in length?

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 07:18:41

To answer the question about the length; yes the length is limited to the original length, that was why I suggested adding stops. I think if you were measured, showing that your length of travel was equal to that of the original traveller would would keep you legal. When you were not racing you could remove the stops so there was greater length of travel.

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 07:30:19

Oh sorry, I meant to address Brooke's note about her traveller also. Brooke, your traveller is no longer than the original, but it's much closer to the mast, which means it increases the arc of travel of the boom. If you were to draw lines from the gooseneck through the ends of your traveller, they would intersect the transom at two points. Those points are where the ends of a traveller on the transom would have to be to get the same arc of travel as your traveller. I'm guessing that is at least another six inches on either end?

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 08:10:29

Originally posted by Even Chance.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Again, I don't race, but insisting that the traveler stay on the transom just seems silly to me. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The reason the class rules limit what can be done to the traveler is the same as limitations on in all types of racing; to level the playing field so that the average person can afford to compete and the sport remains a test of skill rather than one of wealth.
It provides everyone an Even Chance

Edited by - Renzo on 06/04/2008 08:11:58

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 08:13:30

I'd love to see pics of both Brook's and Andy's if you guys have'em. Thanks

Woops, heheh, I guess a trip to the Tech section will show me Brookes setup

Edited by - DaveR on 06/04/2008 14:25:10

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 09:58:43

The traveler (and the boom vang) control mainsail twist and the angle of attack of the mainsail. I don't see any significant effect that it has on the flatness or CE of the sail. The sail's flatness and CE are controlled by the outhaul, downhaul or cunningham, and backstay adjuster.

The stock C25 traveler is functional, although a bit awkward to use. I can't think of any completely stock travelers that I have especially liked, including the one on my present boat. They almost always need a piece of hardware or two added to improve their ease of use. But, I can't think of any situation in which I thought the boat would point higher or foot faster if only the traveler had a wider range of adjustment. I agree that it can be difficult to adjust it in a blow, but that seems to be fairly typical of almost every stock system, and, it seems to me to be an eccentricity that you can learn to deal with.

I think it's mostly a matter of preference. If you find the existing system so awkward that you're willing to go to the effort and expense to change it, do so, but don't expect it to make your boat point higher or foot faster. It might be less awkward to use, but I doubt that it will have any appreciable effect on the way the boat sails.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 10:08:22

I thought that being able to sheet to windward would have a dramatic effect on the boat's handling.

Edited by - on

andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 10:14:12

Don
Vang sheeting is a fine method when you've got steady wind. On our lake, frequently, it's very puffy (some only lasting a few seconds) with gusts to 20+ in a 15 blow.

That's when we like the full traveler...it makes it easy to keep the boat on a nice 15 deg heal through the puffs by manipulating the traveler without touching the mainsail trim. You just couldn't do that effectively with the stock traveler. In those conditions, we've got the outhaul and vang hardened. It also allows us to use of a more powerful headsail in those conditions. When running, mainsheet length is much shorter so jibing is MUCH easier. Close hauled, I can get the boom right down the centerline. It just gives MUCH more control of the main... as Martha says, "that's a good thing".

As far as class racing goes, what's the difference between allowing a $2000 3DL headsail and a $350 traveler?

I'll try to get some pictures this weekend. We've got a 2 day regatta so we'll be busy. Our club has ok'ed traveler relocation for the C25 class. We've won the class 3 years in a row. Looking for a 4peat

Edited by - andy on 06/04/2008 10:31:55

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
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Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 11:08:08

I seldom trim with the traveler in a gust, I feather/pinch to stay on my feet.

Edited by - on

andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 11:49:09

Frank,
You can do that, but it slows the boat down. I just work the traveler and keep everything else constant. It works for me. My TRWK does not like to be pinched.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 14:01:29

I tend to agree with Frank, on handling short duration gusts, by heading up then falling off after the gust passes doesn't cost you anything in speed and may even get you further to windward than the rest of the fleet. But that's just MHO - different strokes etc. and I'm not going to argue with a winner.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">As far as class racing goes, what's the difference between allowing a $2000 3DL headsail and a $350 traveler?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Because sails are consumables and need to be replaced every few years anyway if you want to remain competitive. Evolving sail technology is comparable to exotic fuel mixtures for limited class race cars.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 14:36:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andy
 As far as class racing goes, what's the difference between allowing a $2000 3DL headsail and a $350 traveler?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The first time I raced in the C25 Nationals, one of the racers had three spinnakers, each cut differently, and a full set of laminated racing sails, and a tactician furnished by the sailmaker. All his crew members were J24 skippers, and thus very experienced racers. I thought he had been allowed enough of an advantage over all the rest of us. If he had also been allowed to modify his traveler, and install an inside genoa track, and make other modifications to the rigging, he would no doubt have made them all. In doing so, he would have, in effect, been allowed to buy the championship, because the rest of us could/would not have spent our mortgage money and our children's college funds equipping our C25s to race for a trophy. IMHO, that's not what C25 racing is about. Almost every racing class of boat specifies limits on modifications that can be made to the boats. The object of most class racing is to make it a contest of skill, not money. If the winds are right, I can beat his $2000. 3DL headsail with my old dacron headsail. There are some classes that make it very expensive to be competitive. Catalina 25s should not be such a class.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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USA
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Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 14:49:15

The 250 also has a short traveler. IMHO these short travelrs are not a very valuable control. We use the vang or Frank's technique (pinch/fall off).

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/04/2008 22:58:15

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 15:34:26

I must admit that my traveler is centered most of the time. Of course, I am still trying to convince the Admiral that heeling is a good thing.

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