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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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The age-old traveller question...

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Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 17:54:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stardog
 Oh sorry, I meant to address Brooke's note about her traveller also. Brooke, your traveller is no longer than the original, but it's much closer to the mast, which means it increases the arc of travel of the boom. If you were to draw lines from the gooseneck through the ends of your traveller, they would intersect the transom at two points. Those points are where the ends of a traveller on the transom would have to be to get the same arc of travel as your traveller. I'm guessing that is at least another six inches on either end?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That makes sense.

And, for what it's worth, I'm a he (Brooke is an old Maryland surname -- it's been feminized in the last 30 or so years for some reason). No offense: I'm very used to it.

Edited by - on

andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 20:38:46

I agree with you guys on the sails. Putting expensive hi tech racing sails on a C25 is really overkill. Kinda' like putting lipstick on a pig. My old blown out 155 still works well in light air. Point is, it's fun to try to get max performance out of the boat inexpensively and sail it well in a race. One extra tack or a bad tactical decision in a short race and the fancy sails and go-fast goodies don't mean a thing.

I do use a $395+($150 for recutting the leach and fixing the luff) Doyle Pentex tri-radial off an S2 for my #1 however. It should last one more season.
Ya gotta' do what cha' gotta do.

I love my C25...it's a perfect bost for the type of sailing I like to do.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 21:19:35

The 05 National champion has a Harken custom curved full width traveler across his transom. He simply sets stops at the proscribed length when he races. He says it was horrible to install.

I did this with my '82, it worked very well.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 21:37:15

I like the comparison to putting lipstick on a pig to making our C25 a super racer. The C25 is a compromise to racing, cruising and trailering and the most fun racing is if all the boats are rigged the same and it comes down to skippers and a little luck. The close races can be relived for many times around the table to relive that moment of truth. Practice with the traveler and vang to get the most boat speed is the combination that will get you the thrill of up close in competition with your friends.

When I started racing as a newbie, we came into the parking lot with our boat and saw everyone gathered around a sharp looking boat and we all thought they must be looking at the latest racing hardware for the race.

The C25 skipper was proudly showing his latest hardware, an ice maker. We had the best time racing with the group and we're made to feel most welcome. The boats were all class boats.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 06:34:08

I think the biggest issues with the traveller for me are:
- lack of travel, and
- inability to 'pop' the line out of the cleats.

I like your set-up for accessibility Frank, but I have also hearf of putting in a continuous line system someplace. How do the stanction-mounted cleats release? Do you have a part number someplace that I can dig a little deeper into this?

The custom curved setup is what I had envisioned for my boat. When I talked to the folks at Garhauer about it they said its do-able, but not cheap. I have been working on other ideas, but haven't found anything I like.

What we really need is an overhead traveller arch like they have on the Hunter 38 - then again that may be overkill...

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Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 07:25:41

I have to agree that a vang does virtually nothing to pull the CE forward, its job is to control twist. The mainsheet is the primary control for angle, but also helps to control twist, so letting out the mainsheet in a heavy puff tends to change the shape of the sail. No matter how powerful your vang is, your boom is going to bend upward and the sail is going to deepen. Sheeting out is an acceptable way to manage puffs, but isn't it nice to just let out your traveller and depower your sail with almost no effort?

I really like that custom setup on the 05 champion's boat, but I think Frank's arrangement would be more reasonable price-wise. Do you have a C25 now Frank and if so, what sort of traveller are you using?

I'm sort of surprised no one has said they have a cabin top setup; an arch or something of the sort. I guess we all like to pop the top up from time to time and let the fresh air blow through.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 09:21:05

I have an '89 now. Catalina changed over to a sternrail mounted X track traveler in the late '80s, you can still see them on the 22s. The stern rail mounted system could probably be added to the older sternrails but the the entire sternrail cannot be swapped.

The mod I did used Spinlock hardware with Harken cheek blocks. The new version of the Spinlock is here.
http://mauriprosailing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=SPIPXR0206VP&Category_Code=SPIPXR

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 11:10:07

That's a nice setup Frank, and reasonable hardware for the average Joe or Josephine. The old traveller bar is rather small in diameter, I guess I could weld, clamp or bolt a second, larger bar on, to provide a better surface for mounting the track. I'm guessing I can order the traveller assembly, I'll investigate.

Thanks!

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Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 20:31:40

Brooke,

I did assume you were female and the reason for that is the woman in your pictures in the tech tip section. I apologize for making the assumption and assure I think Brooke is a manly name :)

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skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 11:17:35

I have to say that putting the traveler and main sheet in the middle of the hatchway just makes no sense to me. When I got my 78 Cat 25 the PO had this set up. It was the very first thing I tore out and put the traveler and main sheet back at the end of the cockpit. I believe it belongs there for several reasons:
The boom is sized for sheeting at the end of the boom not at mid boom. Technically, if you are doing mid boom sheeting, you should have a heftier boom section.
Tripping over the traveler every single time you go below decks, sailing or not.

The stock traveler on the Cat 25 doesn't make much sense because it is way too short. Since I ripped out the PO's earlier install of a Harken traveler, I decided to modify it and put in on the transom. I hope to be posting pictures of this retrofit shortly. I have now a quality set of hardware long enough to do some good and, in my opinion, installed in the correct place on the boat.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 11:30:46

I changed my traveler several years ago. The control line comes on each side from the mainsheet attachment to a turning block on the transom, through a fairlead on the edge of the seat, to a turning block by the cockpit floor and then to a turning block at mid-cockpit and up to a camcleat just below seat level. I use non-continuous 3/16" line. The whole set-up cost $144.
The crew can now easily adjust the traveler and leave me to concentrate on steering!

I apologize for the poor pics - there will be better ones in the next Mainsheet.

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Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 12:02:05

Nice setup Derek, looks like it would be pretty easy to single-hand also. You're using the standard car aren't you?

I'm pretty sure I raced against you before, on Lake Travis, Turnback Canyon? I'm pretty sure I recognize your boat, doesn't it have a large arrow indicating the "correct direction of orientation"?

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Even Chance
Captain

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393 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 18:20:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by skrenz
 I have to say that putting the traveler and main sheet in the middle of the hatchway just makes no sense to me. When I got my 78 Cat 25 the PO had this set up. It was the very first thing I tore out and put the traveler and main sheet back at the end of the cockpit. I believe it belongs there for several reasons:
The boom is sized for sheeting at the end of the boom not at mid boom. Technically, if you are doing mid boom sheeting, you should have a heftier boom section.
Tripping over the traveler every single time you go below decks, sailing or not.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Isn't life wonderful? We can have utterly different opinions and still be happy.

My bridgedeck was a long-studied solution to the tall rig bimini dilemma. The problem with the pushpit-mounted traveler (other than the regular clotheslining effect when you tack or gybe) is that the bimini has to be moved radically forward for the mainsheet to clear it, thus uncovering much of the cockpit and making going forward very difficult (especially for this 6'3" 250 lb. carcass). The only reason I didn't get a 6' long bimini instead of the 4' is because I was too cheap to have slots made for the backstay, which the six footer would require.

I have had zero problems with the "beefiness" of the boom vis a vis my setup. It seems to me that a bail held by a bolt running through the fattest section of the boom is sturdier than an endplate attached by screws in the end of the boom!

I also have yet to trip over the traveler. Stepping from the cockpit sole to the top step of the companionway ladder requires a four inch longer step, which I've managed easily. The traveler car is usually to one side or the other, so the width of the companionway isn't compromised. If it is centered, pushing the sheet to one side for a second as you pass is no big deal. In fact, it makes a very convenient handhold.

Finally, I can now sit forward of the tiller and steer with my aft hand, managing all sheets with my forward hand, without the mainsheet crossing my body, or needing to be shifted to the other side of the tiller on a tack. That feels so much more natural . . . to me, which is pretty much the point.

If you like the stock arrangement, good for you. I didn't and found something that has been better for me. Good for me!

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 20:45:26

Sorry Stardog, I've never been on Lake Travis - but bring your boat to Canyon Lake and I'll be glad to compete!

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andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2008 : 10:47:22

Brooke,
I've found everything you've said to be absolutely true.
The boom issue especially. I submit that vang sheeting to twist the main puts much more strain on the boom than relocating the bale forward 18" or so (I don't know the exact amount I moved it).
Again, I respect everything said with regard to the traveler. All I know is I would never change it back unless I had to. We are thinking about going to S.F. next year...we've got some experience racing there.

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Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2008 : 11:26:36

Hey Derek, it must have been a different boat. You're lucky to be on Canyon Lake, it's a beautiful place. I haven't been there in quite some time now, how is traffic on the lake? Travis is considerably more crowded than when I first started sailing here, but even if it were wall-to-wall with boats I would sail anyway. :)

You all have some nice solutions for the traveller. Not sure what I'm going to do with mine, but I will be doing something. The wind was honking so hard yesterday at one point I could not uncleat my mainsheet with one hand and the traveller was totally worthless. Those few degrees of trim would make a big difference.

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andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2008 : 11:43:20

We had some fairly extreme race conditions this weekend. The traveler was to leeward (fully) frequently

. Actually, when beating in the puffs, it was constantly moving. I never had to touch the main sheet

. In those conditions, the windward sheeting car was very useful. The stock traveler would have been useless... we would have had to play the main sheet. That's what we did with the C250 (I used to own) and the stock traveler on the C25. With the stock traveler you have to do all that cross handed. I found it awkward and annoying.

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2008 : 20:47:31

osmepneo's po replaced the traveller with a mid-boom set-up. The track runs across the seats just aft of the cabin. Big problem is that crew leg always seem to be in the way.

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Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2008 : 16:35:21

Here's another question about the old traveller; has anyone tried replacing all of the old sheaves with newer ball bearing sheaves? I think a lot of the frustration could be taken out of the old traveller by doing this to it and by replacing the turning blocks with some larger diameter cheek blocks. At least the whole mechanism would move freely this way. Am I wasting time pursuing this line of thought? Should I just bite the bullet and replace the whole thing with a track and car?

Edited by - on

andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2008 : 17:09:57

I replaced the sheeves on the old traveler. The problem isn't with operating it... the problem is where it's located and the fact that is it so short as to be practically useless.

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cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2008 : 06:15:53

I have been reading this thread with great interest because we still have the old set up. Since the Admiral and I are just cruisers and have no intention of racing, we will keep what we have. I will change out the old line for new, but for the most part, we leave the traveler centered and adjust the sails elsewhere.

For my money, I will do other projects, updated electrical panel, cabin fans, new mainsail, bottom job at end of this season, topside cleaning and refinishing with poly glow, new galley and head water pump, new cushions... The list goes on and on and never gets any smaller.

OOPS...forgot the install of the pneumatic lifters for the poptop. (Yes Frank, I still have them in the box.) Get cockpit cushions, replace old style backstay adjuster with new style, replace old style rudder with new ida-sailor balanced rudder, new gudgeons and top gudgeon access plate... (see the list grows.. I need to get off this site before I think of another.

)

Maybe our next boat will have a more adequate traveler.

Edited by - cat1951 on 06/12/2008 06:35:37

andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2008 : 09:18:27

Great point Mike, we all love our boats because the C25 is so versatile.
In my case, the boat units, (1 unit=$100) are scarce

and I tend to spent them on performance. Racing isn't for everyone. We're lucky our boats do everything fairly well. This season I bought one of Ida Sailor's rudders. They're made here in Boise. The rudder works extremely well racing or cruising. It was a good use of the elusive boat unit.

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2008 : 15:14:10

If she doesn't like healing tell her to get on the high side and hike. :)

Andy - Many one design classes have a new sail purchasing policy. But Steve is right - As long as your sails aren't totally stretched you can be competitive with the guy with the new sail. Sails still have specific measurements you have to be within, that keeps things even. Once you allow someone to move the traveller you give them a distinct advantage 1 because not everyone will do it and 2 because he has his choice of optimal location on the boat to put it. The one thing no one has mentioned is that you don't have to use that silly bar on the back of the boat. You can replace it with X or T track and bigger purchase blocks and a more usable traveller control line system. The rules just dictate where it is mounted.

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Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2008 : 12:36:25

Hey Derek,

I found the picture of your boat in the gallery, and it's not the boat I was thinking of, the boat I raced against had the arrows facing down. It may not have even been a Catalina, as I raced PHRF a lot back then. Incidentally, nice looking boat you have there!

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