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Brand new Tohatsu won't start!

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/11/2008 : 20:53:06

I got my cables installed through the fiberglass under the starboard catbird seat this afternoon, and quite pleased with the install. I routed the cables down to the battery & hooked everything up. Figured I'd run the engine for another part of it's break in cycle and it wouldn't start!

I punched the start button once just to make sure everything was hooked up correctly, no problems. Hooked up the ears & hose, connected the gas tank to the engine, opened the relief valve for the tank, and pumped up the bulb. The bulb didn't seem to be getting hard, so I probably squeezed it more than necessary. I pushed the start button with the choke out and the throttle in the "start" position. The engine spins as you'd expect, but no start. I'm reasonably sure it's simply flooded, and I noticed that there's gas actually coming out of the right side of the engine, underneath the carburetor. Perhaps it's simply purging the extra gas in the system? Is this normal? I wouldn't think so, but I know that I'm not exactly the best mechanic in the world. I could see where if there were excess pressure in the system from pumping the bulb too much it might leak past seals.

Advice is appreciated, I don't want to have to take my brand new engine to a shop. Oh, one other thing, it ran perfectly last time I tested it simply to see if it ran. This was probably three weeks ago.

David
C-250 Mainsheet Editor

Sirius Lepak
1997 C-250 WK TR #271 --Seattle area Port Captain --

Edited by - on

danandlu
Navigator

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USA
174 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2008 : 21:45:48

I found on my Tohatsu 9.8 that the "start" position on the throttle is only for starting after the engine has been run, that is for a restart w/o choke. To start from cold only pull the choke knob out, it sets the fast idle along with the choke. I hope this helps, it wasn't clear in the owner's manual - not to me anyway.

Just in case, I'm sure you already know, but I'll say it anyway, don't forget that the safety lanyard/clip is in place under the red kill button.

Edited by - danandlu on 05/11/2008 22:29:32

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2008 : 21:58:26

I had the same thing happen with a new engine that was run several weeks earlier and the gas went "bad" before the second start. Have had a fuel line with a bulb because of a warm day over pressurize the line between the engine and the bulb and wouldn't let me pump more fuel. Clear an engine by opening the throttle and cranking for 10 seconds with out the choke. Check then for spark to see if you do need the clip under the red kill switch. Let us know how you did.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2008 : 22:02:00

Yep, forgot to mention that, the lanyard's attached.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2008 : 22:41:06

on my motor, when new, the idle speed was adjusted too slow for it to run. First time I started it up at 1/2 throttle and then I set the idle speed. After it broke in I was able to back off the idle speed setting.

If the engine is flooded, leave choke off, disconnect gas, and open the throttle all the way to purge gas from the cylinders.

If that doesn't work pull a plug or two and then crank, pumping fumes out the plugholes. Flooded engine the plugs will be really wet.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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3440 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2008 : 22:42:36

Only thing I can think of besides what was already mentioned is the off-chance that the fuel line plastic connector to the outboard has a hair-line crack in it on the face of the connector. My outboard, pumping the fuel line bulb to ensure the fuel line is full, does not seem to ever overfill/causing leakage but once I did have something similar to what you reported with a gas discharge. It turned out to be a hair-line crack in the face of the plastic fuel line connector.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2008 : 05:25:58

The inline gas filter is on the port side of the engine below the water dischard hose. Held in place by two of the fingergrip spring clips. If fuel is coming out of the engine, then perhaps the fuel line is breached including as Larry said. You should be able to view any spurts of gas from that area when you squeeze the inline fuel pump bulb.

(all this assuming the insides have not changed much since the 2005 model)

Paul

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2008 : 08:45:11

The 'gas coming out of the carb' bit is a good clue that you heavily flooded the engine. As suggested above.. no choke, open throttle is SOP for clearing a flooded engine. Some modern engines have a stop switch wired in to the fuel connector so the engine stops as soon as the fuel line is disconneced. Dunno if yours has that feature. If it does, leave the line connected while clearing the engine.

For extreme flooding you may have to remove the spark plugs and turn the engine over to clear the excess fuel.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2008 : 11:12:19

First off, I have zero experience with Tohatsu's.

If your outboard's carb has a float bowl, it is my understanding that over pumping the bulb will not result in flooding the carb since the float needle will/should cut off the fuel flow when the bowl is full. YMMV

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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2017 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2008 : 12:28:39

Dave, I have a Honda with electric start so no choke to pull. But I have flooded none the less. One thing I have done is left in gear and obviously motor wont start. Strange your motor worked fine couple weeks ago. I know how frustrating that can be. Please let us know what resolved the problem. Good luck.
Steve A

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2008 : 12:49:31

I had a similar problem. Started fine on the stand in my garage. On launch day I got nuthin'. I was abe to start it a couple of times playing with the shift controller and pull starting but, it ran badly. Seemed to have something to do with the shift safety interlock mechanism. Now it won't start at all.

Still waiting for the yard mechanic to get around to it.

Hope this isn't a trend.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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Response Posted - 05/12/2008 : 12:52:27

John, is yours a Tohatsu?
Steve A

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John Russell
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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2008 : 13:20:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 John, is yours a Tohatsu?
Steve A
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Sorry, Yep! 2005.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2008 : 13:51:46

When I get home this evening, I plan to pull the spark plugs, disconnect the fuel supply & crank it around a few times to blow anything out that might still remain from last night's abortive attempt.

I also managed to run my battery nearly dead in the process which was a big surprise to me. Fortunately it's sunny today, so I'll get a bit of a recharge via the solar array, and I'll put the battery on charge before I try the starting procedures again. Probably should have done that last night, but I was too irritated & didn't even think about it till I was already in bed.

It seems like outboards are never easy. I bought this one so I wouldn't have to go through stuff like this. I do need to figure out what I did wrong though, I wouldn't want this to happen on the water, or to Rita when she was trying to start the engine.

Thanks for all the suggestions, I'll let you know what happens tonight.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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2017 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2008 : 15:12:59

Dave, the fear of engine crapping out concerns me too. They are supposed to be simple machines. Only a couple of things can go wrong, right! I may be crazy, but I prefer outboard to an inboard diesel. When I do overnighters, I take my dinghy and 6ph Tohatsu. A fellow sailor told me his outboard died so he strapped the dinghy to the side of his sailboat and used the motor on the dinghy to get him where he wanted.
And even thought I have a tow service, the stories I hear don't make me feel any safer/less stressed. And that's why I sail, among other thing, its a stress reducer.

And yes, please report back what happens. I will tell you what does reduce my stress, this forum.
Steve A

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2008 : 23:42:34

Update: The engine's running again!

I think what it was came down to over pumping the bulb, but I don't know that for sure. I think what I thought was a dead battery was actually hydrostatic lock. I put my charger on my battery, and it showed nearly charged. Hmmm...thought about that for a while, then remembered what happened when I flipped a truck in a snow bank a long time back. Oil leaked down into the cylinders and wouldn't let the engine turn over. So I decided to pull the plugs & turn the engine over. An AMAZING amount of gas shot out of both cylinders, fortunately I'd aimed the engine away from my head since I was working on the plug side. I'm going to have a dead spot in my grass though I think. I cranked it around a few more times to blow it out, then blew the gas off of the plugs and put them back in. Cranked it, nada, not even a cough. Took the plugs back out, cleaned them with a brass brush & touched them up with some 220 paper. Put them back in and cranked it & got a cough...woohoo! we're getting somewhere. I took the choke completely off, put the throttle to wide open and kept cranking. It would hack & cough, sputter, then die. Did that for about 10 minutes and got it to start, sort of, hacking & coughing, sputtering, not getting up to RPM, but running enough to pee, but just barely. I pulled the gas fitting off thinking it might possibly still be forcing gas down it's throat, and it finally started to idle up properly. AHA! I ran that for a while then plugged the fuel line back in, and it died almost immediately. Huh? Did the same thing, another five minutes of cranking, got it to the sputtering point again, and pulled the gas line, it rattled, grumbled, and finally spun up to speed. By now it was effectively past astronomical twilight, I was truly working in the dark, I could just barely see what I was doing, so I decided to let it run the gas out of the carburetor & simply die. It took an amazingly long time for this to happen, but it finally did, running smoothly the whole time. It was after 9pm, and I"m sure my neighbors were tired of listening to me cranking an engine over, so I called it quits.

The short list for me to remember:
Don't over pump the bulb, give it maybe one squeeze at most.
Remove the fuel line to remove the pressure. Tomorrow when I have light, I'm going to push the ball down in the line to relieve the pressure. Be prepared to do this on the water if it happens...I think.
If it does happen, don't keep trying to start it, if the engine is in hydrostatic lock, you could easily bend or break something. Pull the plugs and blow the gas out of the engine. Then clean & touch them up.
Start it with the choke off, and the throttle wide open. It might take 10 minutes of cranking & cleaning to get it to come to life. I'll be adding a brass brush & nail file to my tool box.

I would NOT want to have to do this on the water!

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2008 : 05:59:51

David, the good news is that you should now have no issues. Our T9.8 starts first time every time (so far

). I always disconnect the fuel hose at the tank end after flushing the engine (after each trip) and let the engine run out of fuel. It empties the fuel line, bulb and as you say, the carb too.

We have never had the engine off the transom yet, so maybe this process will help avoid any fuel in the wrong place issues.

I tend to pump the fuel bulb until I feel some resistance, your point is well noted. I'm guessing that now you have fixed the issue, You won't need to start it normally with the throttle in anything but the start or restart positions.

Paul.

Edited by - on

DanM
Captain

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USA
256 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2008 : 06:19:49

David, a couple of symptoms you mentioned jogged my memory of a similar incident with a lawn tractor. I tilted it dangerously on a the side of a ditch--the side with the carburetor was facing downhill. After shutting it off (for safety) to drag it back on flat ground, it wouldn't start. After much aggravation I found that the float was stuck and gas was just pouring into the cylinder.
So, did you happen to lay the engine down on the wrong side? The carb is on the starbord side; same side as the shift lever. So if you lay it down it should be on the side with the tiller.

Edited by - DanM on 05/13/2008 06:22:47

DanM
Captain

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USA
256 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2008 : 06:27:53

David, an afterthought........whatever was the cause, you have probably contaminated the oil reservoir with the excess gasoline. Better drain that and refill with fresh oil.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2008 : 07:21:28

David,
Glad to read that you got it fixed. Sounds like you had a stuck float valve. A word of caution to anyone with a 4 stroke engine. When you lay it down, ALWAYS lay it down on the tiller side. Otherwise, you could allow oil to drain into the cylinders. If you try to start it in that condition, you could cause serious damage to a cylinder or crank shaft. Found that out the hard way with a 5hp Merc. shortly after I bought it. Took over a year and 3 engine tear-downs by the dealer to diagnose the problem. Fortunately the district mfgr rep agreed to a warranty claim, as I was adamant that I had never laid it down on the wrong side, and was certain that the dealer's repair guy had done it. Dealer is a member of our yacht club and long-time acquaintance so that may have helped, too.

Edited by - dmpilc on 05/13/2008 07:22:35

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2008 : 08:28:25

I'm wondering if maybe there might be a small piece of debris preventing the float needle from fully closing or maybe something stopping the float from moving properly?

If you're able to look down the carb, take a flashlight and shine it down the carb while pumping the bulb. If you see puddling, you may have float bowl issues. Just a thought...

Edited by - dlucier on 05/13/2008 08:28:56

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2008 : 08:31:23

The only time the engine has been on it's side while in my care was the day it showed up, and before I put oil in it. The FedEx guy helped me mount it on my transom, and it's been upright ever since.

Dan, you make a good point about the oil, I'll change that out.

I'm just relieved that it's running again.

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ClamBeach
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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2008 : 09:19:31

>"I think what it was came down to over pumping the bulb,"

I did that to my Honda 8 once. Somehow I was convinced that the bulb hadn't pressurized so I kept on pumping it. Pump hard enough and you'll push gas past the needle valve.

I finally had to remove the plugs and purge fuel from the engine just like you did.

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Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2008 : 09:29:59

David,
Just to expand on what others have said, if the float is stuck open, or the needle valve is stuck, when you pump the bulb you will not get any pressure because the gas is flowing through the carb and out. With the fuel line disconnected from the engine you should be able to squeeze the bulb and feel it harden as pressure develops. If not you probably have a bad bulb. I suspect the bulb is okay because when you re-attached the line to the engine the pressure within the hose probably forced more gas into the cylinders causing the sputtering. When disconnected, the venturi effect within the carburetor is pulling fuel out of the bowl at a measured rate which is why it runs smooth. The float needle valve is supposed to allow the gas to flow into the cylinders without impact from pressure caused by the fuel pump or primer bulb. You state it is a 2005 engine but earlier you said it was new so I take that to mean "New to You". It could very well have some residue from old gas causing the float or valve to stick. If you spray some aerosol carburetor cleaner into the gas inlet of the carb and run the engine it may free up whatever is sticking. If you can take the bowl off the carb you can spray it directly on the float and valve while you work them.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 05/13/2008 : 10:01:23

Joe, it actually is brand new, a 2008, we just ordered it from Online Outboards.

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2008 : 21:24:19

Mine's the 2005 Joe. It still isn't running. Tomorrow will be four weeks since I asked my yards service department to lok at it. I hate spring.

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