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How to arrive at a fair price?

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SCnewbie
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Initially Posted - 02/22/2008 : 10:46:56

So I have looked online at a few boats and seen one in person. The asking prices for these are all over the map, and none agree with either NADA or BUC. I am comparing three at the moment.

Boat #1: 1995WB tiller steering kick up rudder, Has an older evinrude 9.9HP electric start OB and brand new sails. The engine looks rough as can be but the broker states it starts easily and runs well. That could be verified at survey I suppose. It has no cockpit cushions, companionway hatch leaks a bit and has resulted in the owner throwing away the aft berth mattress ( I would replace it with an air bed) and the wood panel to port of of the companionway has a bit of rot at the lower edge. No bimini, trailer appears in pretty decent shape. Listed at $15000. I have looked at the one on person and it is local so I wouldn't have to worry about finding a way to transport it 400 miles.

Boat #2: 1996WB tiller steering kick up rudder. Has a newer outboard but don't know the model(9.9HP electric start.) According to the owner, the trailer has just been rebuilt recently. New hydraulic brake system, new lights, new springs. It has a bimini, lazy jacks, mainsail cover, GPS AM/FM CD player and VHF. It also includes a spinnaker. Listed at $14000 sold by a private owner. This one is a good distance from me so I would have to figure out how to get it home.

Boat #3 I don't know a lot about yet: 1995WB wheel steering don't know what style rudder. Nissan 8Hp electric start outboard. VHF speed depth and wind instruments. Also has cockpit cushions but I don't know if it has a bimini. The ad states stern seats but I don't think they mean the stern rail seats like on the newer models based on what I see in the pictures. I know all the arguments against the wheel but all things being equal, my wife would rather a wheel and she is the one really making the call on this one. I know that I wear the pants in the family when she lets me. It is listed at $15,995.

The listing broker for the boat I looked at that is local said the owner is eager to sell. I floated the idea of offering $11,500 which is in line with what I saw on BUCValue and NADA. He made it seem as if the owner may entertain the offer. In truth, I don't know how I go about coming up with a fair value.

On BUC and NADA, does the trailer value get figured into the price? I think I can add the stuff I want (other than wheel steering) to the one locally for a couple of grand.

I appreciate all the help you guys have been already for my wife and I. I got insurance quotes and all the money in place to move ahead when we find the right boat.

S/V Cornbread
1995 C250WB #161
Charleston SC

Edited by - SCnewbie on 02/22/2008 13:30:51

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2008 : 11:29:08

Tomorrow I can send you the spreadsheet I set up when shopping for our boat.

I found that prices vary regionally, and in our case the better price, and the value of the dollar made the Detroit area prime for us. If its on a trailer, it should affect the price by $1500- $2000 IMO.

If I were you I'd take my sweety for a weekend drive that hapened to be in the area of the boat on the trailer. give it a good looking over. You can rent a truck to get it home if the trailer is good. Take a look at Toresens in Musegon http://www.sailboatbrokers.com/yw.php I was there in the fall and found some very good deals on freshwater boats, however I don't recall any on trailers. What they have in stock is older than you are looking at, but the highest price they are listing is in the $8K range (I was through that particular boat and was non-plussed, but some of the others are quite nice). I would seriously consider asking them if they know of any that will be coming available in the near future.

Our haul from Detroit to Lake Simcoe (5 hours each way) was around $1300, plus time at the border and import duties. We hired a heavy hauler to bring it up, which in hindsight was big time overkill. A very different scenario than you are facing, but it was still cheaper than buying locally.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 02/22/2008 : 13:31:01

We looked nationally for our C250. Found the right one in Iowa, 2000 miles away. They wanted $22k and we offered $20k and they took it. 2000 C250 Wing with Honda 9.9, wheel, Autohelm, cockpit cushions, in excellent shape. If you have a worthy tow vehicle the trip can be an adventure.

Whatever you do, offer a couple grand under the asking price. The worst they can do is say "no" and they will make a counter at that. Ours said "yes" because a boat in the yard isn't doing the owner any good.

A boat is worth what someone will pay for it.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 02/22/2008 13:32:00

bear
Admiral

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Response Posted - 02/22/2008 : 13:47:52

Just my three cents worth. I paid $14,800 for my 95 WB with the original rudder but loaded with all the gear necessary to sail with plus two half day lessons. 8 h.p. Honda and trailrite trailer were part of the deal. I did my own survey. This was in June 2001,
in upstate N.Y. Pay attention to what series rudder is installed and condition of swing keel cable......

Edited by - on

SCnewbie
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Response Posted - 02/22/2008 : 13:54:52

Thanks. What do you guys figure new sails are worth?

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 02/22/2008 : 14:54:21

Sails are generally not thrown into the equation on boats of this size. I don't know why, but they seem to be an afterthought - especially in the entry level cruising boats.

Trailer is generally not in the NADA Calculation.

If you know anyone who is a boat appraiser/surveyor many have access to the back end of Yachtworld.com where they can list previous sales of like for like and similar by region. When I had the O'day 30 surveyed I received a printout with quasi comparative analysis that attempted to justify the price.

You can always see what the others are listing at right now all over the web then adjust a few thousand below the average. NADA for boats isn't as widely accepted as it is for cars so don't treat that as gospel.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 02/22/2008 : 15:20:28

I paid $17k for my '99 WK a year ago. She doesn't have a lot of extras but she's in pristine condition. She also has a newer (2005) 9.8 Tohatsu electric start. I thought it to be a great deal because the PO had already ordered his new stinkpot er er, I mean motorboat. Sorry Rodger.

I think NADA and other guides are a good place to start. You can also look up the motor values.

Remember, the broker is working for the other guy. So, trust them that far.

Randy's right (again) nuthin' ain't worth nuthin till somebody writes the check.

When I bought my boat, I had to move it about 250 miles. I don't have enough truck but, I thought I could rent one. WRONG!!!!!! I looked hard and could not find one to rent. U-haul won't do it and neither will a few of the other places I tried. It ended up cost about $350 for that 250 miles. I had an RV dealer that was in the area of the PO pull it. It was significantly less expensive than a boat hauler by half at least.

Visit Arlyn Stewart's website and read about his experiences with wheel steering on earlier 250's. Arlyn is a well respected contributor to this site. http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/steeringcable.html In the interest of full disclosure, I'm in the tiller steering camp but think that the problems Arlyn described about earlier steering versions are worth consideration. As I understand it, the more recent versions of the steering mechanism are less problematic. Randy and others might chime in here.

New sails at National Sail Supply http://nationalsail.com/ will cost about $1300 -$1400 for a new main and new 135% genoa. New sheets will be another few hundred dollars.

Spend some time browsing places like Yachtworld http://www.yachtworld.com/index.html. They currently list 16 C250's ranging in price from $14k to $36k. That will give you an indication of ASKING prices. Remember they're just that. Asking prices.

BTW, the C250 doesn't have a swing keel, it has a centerboard. That is significantly different than the issues of the C25's swing keel but, Bear is right, the condition of the lifting cable is an important maintenance issue.

Finally, it really is a buyer's market. You have the advantage. Guard against "falling in love" with a boat before you're sure of its value. Don't ask how I know

Edited by - John Russell on 02/22/2008 15:21:18

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2008 : 15:27:02

I agree with Randy, offer several grand lower to start negotiations. And personally, I prefer tiller, especially on this size.
When I got my C250, I sailed her 8 hours back to my home port. It was the best trip I had ever had.
I disagree with John. I looked at several boats and "fell in love with my current Piseas II. But like he said, its a buyers market. Get the best one you can. You will hopefully have her for a long time. Its like a woman, if she don't turn you on now, she wont later!
Good luck,
Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 02/22/2008 15:31:46

John Russell
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Response Posted - 02/22/2008 : 16:14:09

I, too, love my boat. What I meant was that it's easy to get enamored by something without checking into all the warts and blemishes that might be present. Particularly, if the money is in your pocket waiting to get out. 15 year old boats will have a few blemishes. I once bought this truck.......... nevermind, too painful.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 02/22/2008 : 16:25:46

FWIW, we paid $17300 for our '97 WK & trailer a bit over a year ago. That was about mid price between a 2005 & 1995 we looked at. In very nice condition, and we had to drive about 600 miles to get it (twice, once to look, again to buy).

Edited by - delliottg on 02/22/2008 16:31:40

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 02/23/2008 : 07:56:11

I just did a quick peak on Yachtworld. A 2008 C250 is listed for $39,995.00...YIKES!

Edited by - on

willy
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USA
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Response Posted - 02/23/2008 : 16:55:47

Well since you are asking for opinions I'll share mine...forget the first boat...it probably does not have the stern rail seats, (which you will probably love) and replacing the cushions and matress, as well as tracking down the leak is going to involve time and expense. Also, I am very suspect of older outboards as the change to ethanol from MTBE gas has reeked havoc on many of them. Also since one of your forum topics was "Anyone near St. Petes?" I have to assume you are in Florida and that means you will DEFINATELY need a bimini.

Boat number two sounds like it has the most potential...limited spending first year...lazy jacks and electric start, (I love electric start and your wife will love it even more if she has to start the boat)! Also it has the work done you would expect to do to a 10 year old trailer to keep it in good shape. While the tiller / wheel debate seems to be ongoing...I vote for tiller on a 25' boat. You get more cockpit room, better feel for sailing and it can be managed easily with a Davis Tiller Tamer that costs under 25 bucks.The extras inventory and trailer maintenance points to someone who cares for his boat and maintains it!

Boat number three might work but it is older than boat number two and lists for two thousand more. With any of this you have GOT TO SEE the boats. What does the hull look like? Have the topsides been regularly waxed or are the going to cover you with "chalk" when you sit down? Do they have regular or self tailing winches? Teak & Holly floor or fibergalss with carpet...or fiberglass with no carpet? Camper top included? You will want this if you are sleeping a lot on the boat as it adds headroom as well as allows for ventilation without critters in buggy areas.

Edited by - on

AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 00:03:56

Two years ago my 2001 250 WK was listed through a local (Long Beach, CA) yacht broker by the original owner for $28,000.00; all cushions, teak and holly cabin floor, marine head, no VHF antenna or radio, tiller helm, short shaft 5 horse Honda o/b. It was never used; the owner bought it, immediately decided it was too small, and bought a bigger something else; member of a local yacht club with more dollars than sense. So it sat for sale for four years, no offers. I offered $18,000.00 and he accepted! So as stated above, it's definitely a buyers market. Low ball your first offer and they might accept depending on how long the boat's been on the market and time of year.

Edited by - AADIVER on 02/24/2008 00:06:43

jlannutti
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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 07:38:39

Last winter I bought my 98WB from a Marina on the Delaware River. They had taken the boat on trade (for a C-309 I believe). Tiller, 9.9 Honda L/shaft electric start, teak & holly floor, but no trailer. For 14,900 they transported via truck from Haverstraw, NY on the Hudson River, Set it up, put it in the water, gave me a three year deal on a slip 1/2 in year 1, 2/3 in year 2, and 3/4 in year 3. They also agreed to make any repairs that the engine might need the first season...it ran like a top the entire year. The boat is in great shape inside and out.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
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Response Posted - 02/25/2008 : 18:28:36

In 10-06, I bought my 2003 which was is pristine condition and loaded for $23k. Asking price was $26k. And I could have probably gotten it for less. This was after looking at boats for several months and I had been paying for a slip($450 per mo.) for 2 months beforehand w/o a boat. Yes slips were hard to come by in my neck of the woods. Usual wait was 5-10 yrs in SoCal. And I only got this one cuz my neighbor had connections.
Steve A

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/25/2008 : 20:38:28

On tiller vs. wheel, one consideration is that if you expect to do some distance cruising or single-handing, it's <i>much</i> easier and less expensive to put an autopilot on a tiller than on a wheel system. Tiller Tamers are fair for a minute or less--an inexpensive tiller-pilot is like having crew (unless, of course, you become a POB).

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/25/2008 20:39:22

SCnewbie
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Response Posted - 02/27/2008 : 00:21:00

Well, we went with boat #1. The other two boats I just didn't feel real good about. With the drive involved just to look and the condition from the pictures. Then I had to figure out how to get it back. I did find a great way to move a boat for those of you who have to purchase at a distance. I was quoted as $400 to move it from St. Pete to my home in Charleston SC. Pretty good I thought. The guy was asking 15K for the one we bought and I offered 11500. He countered with 12 and I took it. I think it is a decent price for the boat. I am happy with it anyway. I am trying to get the survey scheduled soon. Assuming nothing horrible is found I know right off the bat I need to start working on a Bimini top for it. I also have to bottom paint it. The bottom is very clean and ready to paint but I have to search here and figure out how I get the areas that are currently resting on bunks. I am sure it is already answered on the forum and I will find it. I also need to figure out what I am doing for music on board. Also, we need to work on a name for it. My last boat was named the Shaky Dog after my hound who is afraid of storms. We will see what to call this one. Anyway we are pretty excited. Things are falling into place pretty well. I have my mooring just about set up. I need to buy a dink for it. The wife wants us to just pay to keep the dink at the marina for $75 a month so my concerns of making sure it was light and easy to carry are gone. Any advice on that front? My main concern is stability. My wife needs to feel comfortable riding out to the Catalina in it. It isn't a far trip but it needs to not be very tippy as she boards either. I am thinking either an inflatable from the eBay affordable store or a RIB that I am going to look at tomorrow locally.

Edited by - on

bear
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Response Posted - 02/27/2008 : 06:51:12

Is it possible to leave the dink on the mooring and bring the boat in to pick up your wife if it's that big an issue?

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 02/27/2008 : 09:41:24

Congratulations! And you saved $3,000!!!

We don't bother painting the small spots under the pads. Just go swimming every now and then and wipe any growth off those spots with a brush.

We use a Walker Bay 10 dink. It is solid, not inflatable. Benefits of a solid dink are: it is basically indestructible, wont UV deteriorate, is easy to row, is easy to tow behind the C250, can be set up with sails, and looks sweeeet. The downside is they can be tippy. We bought the inflatable Walker Bay tube kit which resolves that completely and makes it the ultimate dink for us (total cost $1,700). We also have a 2hp Evinrude for it. Others prefer the inflatables so let the debate begin!

Welcome to the wonderful world of C250s!!

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 02/27/2008 : 15:21:40

Congratulations! Glad to see you went with the tiller model. Great choice!

Edited by - on

SCnewbie
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Response Posted - 02/27/2008 : 16:18:21

Well, I figure we will give the tiller a go for a year and after that we can decide if it is worth the money to convert with one of the Edson conversions.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 02/27/2008 : 17:33:32

IM not so humble O, converting a tiller to a wheel won't be worth the investment. I'd imagine you wouldn't be able to get the cost out of the boat if you were to sell her later. I'll guess that if you feel the need to move to a wheel, you'll also feel the need to move to a larger vessel.

Have fun with her. I assume your purchase offer is contingent on a successful survey?

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 02/27/2008 : 19:29:29

Wheels rule!

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SCnewbie
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Response Posted - 02/27/2008 : 19:53:02

Indeed it is contingent on the survey. Scheduled that for next Wednesday.

I understand about the wheel. If she (the admiral) wants it she will get it, even if we won't be able to recoup. At this point we have long range cruising plans. This will be our boat until time for those plans to go into action. She may love the tiller. Who knows.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 02/28/2008 : 08:16:02

Hey SC, is long range referring to time, or distance?

I presented my long range (both time and distance) plans to herself this week. She didn't look very excited. My trip would involve a world of planning, polar bears, narwhals, and arctic char. I'm not sure that it will ever happen.

Edited by - on

SCnewbie
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Response Posted - 02/28/2008 : 10:02:51

Well, everything I read says we shouldn't talk about our p[lans with others but yeah. Time and distance. A lot of things could change but when our kids get a bit older we are setting off. I think we will be staying in warmer climates however. Shoot me an email. I can tell you exactly what it was that sold my wife on the idea. Actually the idea sold itself but you know what I mean. We are both delayed gratification people but this catalina is our "live in the now" boat.

:)

Edited by - on

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