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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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C-250 Comparison to a C-18?

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MartinJW
Navigator

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USA
241 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/02/2008 : 02:52:19

We've tentatively ordered a C-250; this will be a move up from our Catalina 18 mk II.

One of the things that we really like about our little C-18 is that, for its size, its very solid underfoot. Additionally, she really likes to be sailed very flat - probably heeling much less than 20 degrees provides for her optimum performance. My wife really likes the flat sailing characteristics of our C-18.

The fixed wing keel on the C-250 looks disproportionately small, and I've seen many pictures of C-250 wherein the boat is heeled over quite a bit in non-racing conditions.

So, can anyone describe the sailing characteristics of the C-250 in terms of the boat being tender / stiff and/or how much she's going to heel under typical conditions (say 15 knots).

What other performance and cruising differences will be most prominent as we make this big step up from the C-18 to the C-250?

Opinions, suggestions, stories, recommendations... all are welcomed.

Thanks!

Martin Wallace MartinJWallace @ Hotmail.com
Gardnerville, Nevada
(sailing on Lake Tahoe)

C25/250 Int'l Ass'n Member
2008 C-250 WK #973
"Bluebell"
Lake Tahoe, CA/NV

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2008 : 06:58:30

opinion:
Flat sailing is not sailing.
Catalina/Capri 18 wing; B/D 28% B/L 42% medium/low ballast to displacement ratio very high beam ratio adds lots of form stability. Lower mast height = less wind speed = less heeling.

Catalina 250 wing; B/d 25%, B/L 34%. Low ballast to displacement ratio = tender, beam adds some form stability.

My guess is the little 18 was much stiffer. It sounds to me like you need to expose your wife to some competitive sailing so she understands heeling. Remember, "if it isn't 35 degrees ITS CRAP".

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britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2008 : 06:59:37

Martin, if I put JD over to 20degrees, the admiral will be lowering the lifeboats! The 'Can we go to motor now' pleas start at 15degrees (but then that's the admiral not the boats limitation.)

We tend to keep JD pretty flat, tender rather than stiff, healing is not so much an issue compaired to weather helm which we have to work at eliminating.

Paul

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SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2008 : 09:12:17

The Capri is a beamier boat than the C250 (that goes for the CP25 as well), and will sail faster when flat. Frank's 35' comment notwithstanding, if we hit 35' in the Capri we're too slow - Hike and trim.

That said, the C250 is a relatively narrow boat so will continue to be fast with somewhat more heel. Look at it this way: the C250 is 6.5' longer than your Cp18 (about 32%), but less than 1' wider (about 13%). If you're NOT racing, just lower the trav and ease the jib/gen out - boat will not be at max speed but the boat will be flatter (= happy wife).

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2008 : 09:13:05

Welcome Martin! I'll assume you sail on Tahoe, where there's typically 10 miles or more of fetch and deep water, so the chop can get pretty substantial. I think you'll find that the "motion stability" of the C-250 on Tahoe makes up for what might be a little less initial stability against heeling... If not, reef the main before you leave the dock. I can also attest that my late admiral was nervous about heeling in our 17' Daysailer, but that changed on our C-25. She quickly associated sailing upright with sailing <i>slowly</i>, and liked some heel (up to maybe 25 degrees, where I'd hear "Dear?"). She also understood that while the Daysailer could actually capsize (although I never let it), the C-25 virtually couldn't. It takes a little experience to become emotionally convinced of that, but it happens.

I did what I could by sailing our C-25 on the 130 genoa alone when things piped up past her comfort zone. That works very well on the C-25; I can't say how the C-250 sails on its jib alone, except that I'm sure it will do much better than the fractionally rigged C-18 with its proportionally smaller jib. You should be able to find a rig combination and sail trim that keeps you comfortable. Another think I'd do with non-sailing guests when we'd be "sailing to nowhere" was to pick a course that'd be a beam reach out and a beam reach back--much more upright than beating.

In light air with some wave motion (power boat wakes etc.), I think you'll find the C-250 performs much better. She'll sail pretty much upright and maintain more speed through chop than the beamy, lighter 18.

As for Paul's comment about weather helm, he's referring to a water-ballast model... Paul: Have you tried raising the centerboard a little to move the CLR back to about where it is on the 250WK? Overlay the drawings of the two boats to see what I mean.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/02/2008 09:33:47

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2008 : 09:41:52

Oh, and Martin... Keep in mind that regardless of how the proportions look, the 250 has 2-1/2 times as much ballast hanging 50% deeper. With reduced sail, that should take care of you.

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welshoff
Captain

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USA
253 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2008 : 12:02:41

Martin,
I have been sailing my C250 wk for two seasons and offer the following in regards to sailing characteristics:

You have to actively sail this boat, it is not a "set and forget" boat. You need to stay up on your sail management. In light airs the boat moves out decently and is easy to manage.

As the wind picks up, you need to be proactive with regards to sail trim. As the wind picks up and the boat becomes over powered (rounds up), I start by flatting the main sail first (outhaul). I will then induce a little more twist in the head sail (move the jib blocks aft to tighten the foot of the sail), when closed haul keep the head sail/foot "hard" with a little sail twist - I think this keeps the boat "flatter". You then can "play" the main sheet in large puffs to keep her from rounding up, but, I usually will lower the traveler to leeward to depower the main further. I prefer to just lower the traveller to leeward than to play the puffs with the main sheet. Doing this allows you to just "steer" through the puffs and not mess around with the main sheet. If wind continues to build (boat rounds up too much), I then will take a reef in the main sail to depower the sail. I then put the traveller back to center to give more power to the main. As wind builds more, I reef the head sail to about a 90-100% (adjust the jib sheet blocks accordingly). If still a little over powered, then I move the traveller to leeward and I take another turn or two on the head sail. Much more wind than that and I drop sails and motor. I don't have a second reef set up yet. If I did, you could probably roll up the head sail and put a second reef in the main.

I find my boat sails great around 15 degrees. In a good breeze, it will sail between 15 and 20 when "working" through the wind puffs. When the sails are set correctly, you can use the rudder to hold course (don't let her round up - bring the boat down) and you can feel the boat accelerate with the puffs - here is where I think things are fun. The boat is in tune with the wind and you can really feel her sailing and working hard.

I had to learn to sail this boat differently than my previous c27, due to the C250 is mostly driven by the main sail. The head sail provides more balance than horsepower. When I have the sails set appropriately for the wind, I don't think the boat is tender. You can get overpowered, but if you "play" the main sheet out a little, the boat will respond and you can keep her on her feet. The boat will tend to round up if over powered. This causes the boat to heal suddenly and the gear starts to slid around in the cabin. In my world, I need to avoid this scenario as my wife has a certain threshold with regards to sudden healing of the boat. But, with a little practice working with the sail trim you can find the "sweet spot" on this boat and it is a blast to sail her.

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
842 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2008 : 14:05:00

Martin,

I have a C250 Water-Ballast and I sail on the San Francisco Bay.
I agree with Wil that there are several sail plan adjustments to manage your heel.

One thing that surprised me was the high freeboard made us feel more in control.
When we took sailing lessons on a J24,
A) We would get spray over the bow.
B) When heeling, the water was close to the cockpit.

When we bought the C250, we don't get much spray and we've heeled at 40 degrees and the water seemed below the rub rail.
The J24 and C250 are very different boats, but perhaps some of the changes could be similar to a C18 and C250.

Yes, I think you will get more heel, but compared to a C18 the C250 will feel heavier and higher out of the water.

Russ C250WB #793

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MartinJW
Navigator

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USA
241 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2008 : 22:13:27

THANKS to all of you for these fantastic responses!

Martin
Lake Tahoe
(currently: 2007 Catalina-18 mk II #707)

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.