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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5890 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/25/2007 : 14:41:00

I just came across an excellent article on Storm Management for Sailors that explains storm sailing theory in an extremely clear manner. The author presented it at the Seven Seas Cruising Assn. Convention in Melbourne, Florida. This is one of the best I've ever seen on the subject.

The following hyperlink should take you to the article.

http://www.maxingout.com/storm_management.htm

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2007 : 04:28:57

Interesting read... thanks Steve

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3429 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2007 : 05:23:27

Good info ! Not that I am going to go out and buy a drogue, but it does give a good explanation have how a drogue helps. For river sailing or sailing fairly close to shore/protected areas, the link does give helpful info to avoid panicking when a sudden storm does arise and steps you can easily take to minimize losing control and being at the mercy of the wind/waves.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2007 : 11:49:56

Thanks Steve, well worth the read, I've had a drogue in the 25's deep six locker for more than a dozen years, and thankfully, never had to use it. You just reminded me why it's there. First order of business when back in the water is to place it in a position of honor in the locker. Maybe even practice using it.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT, # 3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5890 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2007 : 13:00:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tinob
 Thanks Steve, well worth the read, I've had a drogue in the 25's deep six locker for more than a dozen years, and thankfully, never had to use it. You just reminded me why it's there. First order of business when back in the water is to place it in a position of honor in the locker. Maybe even practice using it.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT, # 3936, Patchogue, N.Y.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yeah Val, a drogue is the kind of thing that you buy, and put away, and after awhile you haven't used it, and you start wondering why you bought it, until the one day when you need it, and then you can congratulate yourself on your foresight.

I need to find one for my boat. The time seems to be drawing nearer when I'll go offshore, and I'd hate to be caught in a storm without one, and have to drag my nice saloon cushions in the salt water.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2007 : 14:56:01

An alternative in an emergency would be a storm sail or other small sail doubled up with about 15 feet of chain attached to keep it down and bridled to a swivel and about 150' of line. Lin & Larry do a nice job with their video "storm weather tactics" http://www.landlpardey.com/Products/Pardey_Videos.html and as a bonus you get the "Yacht club bar" song.

"I love to sit around the yacht club bar and talk about thing we're going to do,

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2007 : 15:01:17

Try again, posted for me...

http://www.thesailingchannel.tv/pardey/storm_tactics/yacht_club_bar.htm

"I love to sit around the yacht club bar
and talk about the things we're going to do.
I love to sit around the yacht club bar
because it doesn't move.
The swells are big and the winds are high
but that don't bother me.
Cause I never get lost and my tummy doesn't toss
It's a wonderful life on the sea.
My boat it is a big one boys. My crew it is the best.
We race around the entrance buoy beating all the rest.
We're the first ones home with a bent elbow and a powerful salt spray thirst.
We sit around and drink all night and see who comes in first.

Chorus- I love to sit around the yacht club bar

I took her out one Sunday, we got about five miles out
The wind it was a screaming, right dead out of the south.
The waves they must have been two feet high, the swells at least one more.
I'm so lost and my tummy is tossed, I'll never get back to the shore.

My head it was a reeling, my feet got tangled up.
Those damn old sheets were everywhere, just trying to trip me up.
The halyard broke, the boom fell down, the main took off like a bird.
Mayday was my final cry as I dived beneath my berth.

My sailing days are over, cause of that great scare.
You others take a warning, and don't you go out there.
There's winds and seas and swells so high, how can you stay afloat.
Be like me and drink to the sea and don't untie your boat.

Written by Glenn Marsden in 1987, arranged by Dick and Chris Todd. These musically inclined folks met while cruising the lagoons of Baja California, Mexico. They all hailed from Newport Beach where, for most of the year, the average wind speed at the "entrance buoy" is from 5 to 12 knots.

Sten
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 enroute to St. Augustine
DPO Zephyr - C25 #3220 FK, SR

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2007 : 16:11:09

I read the article and thanks for posting it. A couple of observations for C-25s in "heavy weather". (Its in quotes because I don't think any of our boats will ever see really heavy weather offshore). Still, I've been in some pretty bad weather offshore racing my C25 and I've read of some lake boaters getting caught in really high winds in thunderstorms so it can happen.

(1) heavy weather is winds 5 to 10 knots over whatever you have experienced before.

(2) heavy winds at night and breaking seas are really scary. Night makes it twice as bad as during the day.

(3) Our dock cleats are woefully undersized for trailing a sea anchor, drouge, or parachute like the article talks about. If you are going to carry such a device you better seriously upgrade the attachment point. I have a 10 inch bow cleat with a big beefy aluminum backing plate.

(4) I do carry a 60% jib and a double reefed main, I've sailed the boat in big winds under just double reefed main and it won't point worth a darn. If you have to point to get away from a hazard you'll need the storm jib.

(5) Our rudders are really weak should we get into an offshore, breaking sea situation. Minimize strain on the rudder at all costs. Streaming a sea anchor from the bow can really strain the rudder. As I've written before, don't overly fight a broach or round up. Let the boat go, even let go of the rudder or hold it lightly and get the boat back on course after thw wave passes. I've been thinking of putting a 3rd pintle/gudgeon on mine.

(6) C25s don't heave to very well (compared to a full keel yacht). I will usually end up about 45 to 90 degrees off the wind forereaching at about 2 knots. It does really calm the boat. I've never tried it under storm jib and double reefed main. Heaving to will carry you through almost all storm conditions although you'll most likely have to steer, especially in a thunderstorm with winds and waves coming from all directions.

In really bad conditions our little tiller pilots won't do squat to control the boat. At best they can hold the boat dead down wind while you reduce sail. I like to turn down wind and sheet everything in tight then reef but if the wind is constantly changing direction that won't work.

(7) I think our best options would be running off before the wind under bare poles, streaming warps if necessary. Most of us don't carry such warps so I would use my stern anchor. Getting the warp in a big loop really helps flatten waves running up from behind. I do have those little cones on 8 lb mushroom anchors for reducing rolling in an anchorage, these would probably be good drouges.

(8) If you have roller furling (I sold mine) I've read lots of horror stories about the sail getting loose at the height of the gale. Double secure the roller line and get up to the bow and get an extra line around the rolled sail. If it gets really windy get that bundle of sail down and stored below. Don't just lash the jib to the lifelines if you have hank ons. The bundle can catch breaking waves and increases windage. Get it below.

(9) Upgrade the pitiful cockpit drains. I have not done this but I did add an electric bilge pump.

(10) make sure anchor locker, cockpit lockers, and companionway boards are locked in place during the storm. I've put barrel bolts on my companionway boards (the lower ones) so I can lock them in and they won't fly out even in a full knockdown.

(11) lifejackets/harness and personal strobes for everyone (I have them).

(12) Make sure batteries are well secured.

(13) Think inverted - prepare everything in the boat for a full knockdown. I have not done this but I know I can go to 45 degrees all day without anything coming loose. If I went to 90 there would be a lot of broken glass inside. If a storm was coming I'd store away a few things. The lid of the built in "cooler" would be a problem for me, I should think about a way to secure that closed. All the storage under the seats would come flying out. Don't know what to do about that.

Always, always, always have a anchor, chain, and rode ready to deploy. I carry 2 on board at all times ready to go.

Keep this in mind. When I was in the "Crew of Two around Catalina" race and was hit by thunderstorms at night far offshore almost all my safety planning went out the window under the real heat of the event. I had my life jacket/harness on but did not get one on my crew nor give him his personal strobe (it was near midnight). I did not lock the companionway doors. I did not latch the cockpit lockers. I was really afraid and as you may recall decided to abandon the race and seek shelter. I won't make this mistake again. Nothing bad happened and we safely anchored and rode it out at Catalina but I've always been ashamed that I didn't perform up to my standards.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2007 : 16:54:06

>"Night makes it twice as bad as during the day."

Roger that... also the boat gets lots smaller at night... and the further offshore you go.

>"I've been thinking of putting a 3rd pintle/gudgeon on mine."

Not a bad thought, as long as the fitment is proper to distribute the load, therwise it won't do much good.

>"I've read lots of horror stories about the sail getting loose at the height of the gale."

I've seen several boats on which this happened... ain't pretty. Why I still have a hank-on jib.

>"Upgrade the pitiful cockpit drains"

I'd go with a 'scupper' kit... there was a discussion about those a long time ago here.

>"I've put barrel bolts on my companionway boards (the lower ones)"

Great idea.

>"hit by thunderstorms at night far offshore almost all my safety planning went out the window under the real heat of the event."

Sailing... one of the 'slowest' modes of transportation in the world, but scary stuff happens in a big hurry.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2007 : 18:37:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClamBeach
[br>"I've been thinking of putting a 3rd pintle/gudgeon on mine."

Not a bad thought, as long as the fitment is proper to distribute the load, therwise it won't do much good.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I suspect the main advantage would be redundancy--not loading. However, you're talking about the biggest reason a C-25 should not be considered an offshore cruiser (meaning going far enough out that you can't get away from a storm and can't call for a tow). The transom-hung, light-duty rudder can't be trusted to stand up to the lateral forces from big seas.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 12/29/2007 : 07:51:07

My C25 endured some rough seas during my tenure as her captain. After all of the concerns above are noted, I would add that the outboard will cavitate in big seas and will become useless. The standing rigging is "right sized" for the designed average intended user, but not for any offshore work. Meaning, even under bare poles you might lose the rig. The deck plate under the mast has 4 very shallow screws going into the deck. Lose a stay or shroud and the base of the mast could rip away before you had a chance to do much of anything.

I was at the Paris boat show three weeks ago and saw the Storm Bag. http://deltavoiles.com/voile_cruising/storm_bag.htm Basically this device wraps around your furler and allows you to run a storm jib safely. If I still had my C25, this would be in my bag of tricks. Simply reefing your roller furling is not enough is some situations as it put all of the strain and force too far up top. I once put in a double reef on the main and then reduced sail even more by lowering the main a bit and putting sail ties over the aft portion of the sail. This sorta worked, but a third set of reef points would be a plus in 35-40 knots

Ballast to displacement ratio on the old fin keels was close to 50/50, so that is good. But a C25 should never be more than 20 miles out in my opinion. As my wife used to say, "We put the small in small craft advisories." I would also suggest that adding a set of pintles and having some sort of backup rudder system would also be helpful if you are going offshore. And add a lot of pop-top hold downs, inside and out. You even go sideways in a C25 and you might lose the boat without securing the pop top.

Just like I look back on my kayaking days and shudder to think "what if?", I shudder to think about some of my experiences on a boat never really designed for the sea.

Sten
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 Charleston SC
DPO Zephyr - C25 #3220 FK, SR

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 12/29/2007 : 12:41:39

I really do not think I would like to be on a C25 well offshore. I think we all pretty well understand that. That said, the closest I have ever come to a sailing disaster had to do with roller furling. Not to say that I didn't have some input into the incident, but it would not have happened with hank ons.

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