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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Mast Head and ice

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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/22/2007 : 10:27:48

I dropped the mast and it's under the wrap, but I notice soo many boats at the yard are stored w/ masts up, although they've been tarped or wrapped. Isn't there a high risk for ice damage to the mast head, sheaves, etc...?

Jerry

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2007 : 11:30:46

IMHO, ice and snow put no more stress on the rig than rain, wind, and salt in the summer. The mast might be stressed more by the weight of snow and ice on a tarp--if it's used as a ridge-pole--than standing up. Also, the chainplates and mast step remain under constant pressure, perhaps leading to fewer leaks... Who knows. I don't think there's a great advantage or disadvantage either way. I had the mast taken down by the yard when I wanted to work on it (for new standing rigging one year), and left up during the years when I didn't.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2007 : 12:19:10

In my boatyard and other surrounding boatyards, pretty much everyone leaves theirs masts up over the winter.

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britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2007 : 13:32:55

Winter?

Paul

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bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2007 : 14:16:58

I left the mast up on Brandy this year and the boat at the marina where she will be docked this next season. 26"" of snow and a couple of ice storms later I don't see any buildups or accumulation. I do shake the standard rigging when walking by though. What bothers me more is high wind forcasted in New York tomorrow. I dont think the tarps can sustain high winds with gusts. I did tie the tarps down by throwing ropes over the top to hold tarps down, but I have doubts...

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2007 : 14:57:30

My experience with poly-tarps is that when they rattle and flap around in high wind, they scuff and scratch everything under them--gelcoat, the annodizing on aluminum, and especially any teak they touch. Teak handrails can be protected by foam pipe insulation. However, I decided to go with either shrink-wrap or nothing.

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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2007 : 15:08:00

I'm a fan of the shrink wrapping - eco issues aside...it's the water/ice getting into the crevices up top - freezing and expanding, etc plus the wind load while on the hard that concern me - maybe it's just another phobia to be added to the ever expanding list...

Edited by - jerlim on 12/22/2007 15:09:07

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2007 : 16:42:08

I covered Kaija with a tarp and a frame that failed. I'm glad I went to check it when I did. The frame collapsed and the tarp formed a swimming pool liner in the cockpit. Water filled to the top of the lazaretes. Fortunately, only the top 3 inches froze by the time I found it. She's now uncovered.

I think the frame failed because I left the mast up and tried to secure the tarp around it and the shrouds. Too many cuts and vertical surfaces to take the wind. Next year the mast comes down.

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4300 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2007 : 17:58:27

Is it possible to buy shrink-wrap somewhere on the Internet?

GaryB
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

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bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2007 : 18:22:25

John, I agree with you totally. I was going to drop the PVC tubing I had assembled supporting the tarps today because of high wind warnings thru Monday morning. Too much excess tarp laying on the boat surface if I did that. I thought about just uncovering Brandy also, but then I have to deal with frozen drains on the cabin roof etc. When Brandy was in my backyard the mast supported an enclosed tarp installation with both ends closed.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2007 : 19:27:03

Here you go Gary: [url="http://www.pro-tect.net/boatkit.htm"]Boat shrinkwrap kits[/url].

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4300 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2007 : 20:34:09

Thank you David!

Anyone have any idea how much this stuff costs and if they will sell to the general public?

GaryB
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

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Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2007 : 06:31:58

I prefer to store with the mast down to provide less wind load being transmitted to the hull when the boat is in the cradle. It is true that a tarp provides more windage but it is down low and most marinas store the boats close together and unless you are the end boat you will be shaded from direct wind by the other boats. Also the structure that I build to support my tarp is made with 1/2 " PVC pipe and it not only keeps the poly tarp from contacting my mast that is stored horizontally on deck but it is flexible enough to bend with the wind and relieve any pressure being transmited to the hull. Ice build up is not an issue if you use enough supports and tie downs to keep the tarp from saging and the flexing action also helps to shed snow and water. I'm sure many of you build similar structures but if anyone is interested I can post some photos.

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DanM
Captain

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USA
256 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2007 : 07:44:01

Although I've had Perfect Day through only 3 winters, she has survived the lakefront wind and snow with the mast up and tarps over the foredeck and cabintop. That protects against ice and snow buildup in the crevices and drains. Use of those black rubber bungies for tiedowns, instead of rope, seems to control the flapping Dave mentions. I often see people wrap tarps over the entire boat and bundle it with rope, only to have it shake loose and blow ragged against the hull. The cockpit remains uncovered, but you should check often to be sure debris doesn't clog the scuppers. Our marina likes you to lower the mast once every few years to check the rigging and equipment. They get $6 and up per foot to do it for you at haulout.
Regarding today's high wind forcast, it's just beginning to pick up (0830). Temperature climbed overnight to 48. It's all supposed to get back to "normal" for the Ice Bowl.

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2007 : 21:03:26

Ice is only a problem when there is no place for the expantion to go. If you leave a full capped jug of water out in winter it will spilt due to expantion but in a situation where there is room for growth, there is no problem....like a mast. Cheers.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2007 : 09:15:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by djn
 Ice is only a problem when there is no place for the expantion to go... but in a situation where there is room for growth, there is no problem....like a mast.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">True, but remember that, for example, if moisture gets into the core of your rudder (the older wood or the newer foam) and then freezes, POP! (It's a good idea for us northerners to store our rudders inside.) Likewise water that gets under gelcoat cracks into the laminate can cause delamination, and dried-out teak can absorb water that freezes and splinters or cracks the wood. I had a Daysailor centerboard swell over the winter to the point that I couldn't get it out of the trunk--had to get a new one.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/24/2007 09:16:29

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2007 : 10:40:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by djn
 Ice is only a problem when there is no place for the expantion to go... but in a situation where there is room for growth, there is no problem....like a mast.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">True, but remember that, for example, if moisture gets into the core of your rudder (the older wood or the newer foam) and then freezes, POP! (It's a good idea for us northerners to store our rudders inside.) Likewise water that gets under gelcoat cracks into the laminate can cause delamination, and dried-out teak can absorb water that freezes and splinters or cracks the wood. I had a Daysailor centerboard swell over the winter to the point that I couldn't get it out of the trunk--had to get a new one.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Ive got to agree with Dave on this one Dennis. Repeated freezing and thawing can create extensive damage over time even if the ice expansion is not trapped. Also lets not forget that Ice weighs the same as water (aprox 8lbs /gal) and if it is allowed to build up on the boat or in the cockpit, the weight alone (especially when unevenly distributed while the boat is in the cradle) can cause major damage. Water,in all it's forms,always wins the battle eventually!

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