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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3436 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/27/2007 : 12:49:54

I finally placed my order for new sails ! I decided to pay the big bucks and get them locally (well...semi-locally). I considered Ullman, Cruising Direct, Catalina Direct, FX sails, Doyle, Quantum and one or two others. Of those on the web, I was most impressed with FX Sails but decided to go with Quantum sails which is headquartered in Annapolis, MD. I am getting a new main sail and a 150% Furling Rig Genoa. The main sail with 1 full batten and 3 partials, numbers, logo, telltails, loose foot and the Genoa with UV cover, foam luff, telltails costs $2550. This was about $400 more than FX Sails. I was waiting a long time for the Doyle quote but then they did not get it right having priced the Genoa w/o furling rig setup. Doyle may have been too busy servicing other customers having sails taken off their boat, cleaned & maintained to really give me prompt attention. After 3 weeks, my thought was that even if I was interested in going with them, I was concerned that delivery of the sails would have also been delayed and maybe not getting the full attention to my purchase. I also could not really compare their grade sail material (Contender Supercruise) adequately to all the other sailmakers that were either utilizing Challenge Performance, High Modulus or High Aspect sail cloth.

Quantum mainly sells Dacron sails out of the high end Challenge sail cloth - High Aspect. Challenge website provides a wealth of matl for anyone that wants to compare the sail cloth matl grades/benefits versus the cost of that matl. (Mack Sails on the web also provides a wealth of info.) My thought is besides going with a reputable sailmaker, you are primarily buying sail cloth. So....why not know the most you can about the matl you are buying versus what other sailmakers are providing. Dacron stretches and some of the grades of that sail cloth stretch more than others ....anyway, I probably spent too much time looking into the attributes...but that's me.

Quantum sells sails as custom made. Tomorrow, they are coming down to my boat to take measurements. I thought that was primarily going to be similar info as website sailmakers require for some boats such as the Cat 25 TR, whereas the SR sails are off the shelf. (Other sailmakers may have both SR & TR off the shelf.) FX Sails requires dimensions for the TR. However, Quantum is also going to take my old sails off the boat and measure them as well, then reinstall.

The sails are then designed at their Headquarters in Annapolis. Cruising sails are then made in Cape Horn, South Africa (not semi-local). I then have the option of picking them up at their Headquarters (~ 1 hr from work in DC) and pay MD tax or have them shipped to Virginia for about $75 and avoid the higher tax cost.

Quantum's website has info on full batten sails and Quantum seems to indicate it preferable to not get full batten sails. I questioned that and mentioned advice given by Cat Association members. But Quantum feels that for the type of sailing I do (maybe the waters I sail in) and the benefits to be derived were not all that convincing to go with 4 full battens or even 2 full battens. So...for now, I am going with 1 full batten but will discuss again with them tomorrow.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/27/2007 12:56:19

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2007 : 13:04:37

Interesting stuff.
I ordered a 110 hank-on and it seemed to take a lot of energy and research to get the order completed.
Look forward to hearing your opinions when you gets your news sails up.

I won't be able to report on mine until about May 15

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2007 : 18:01:11

Larry - you may want to rethink the batten question. Full battens are a real asset on a mainsail, helping to maintain shape especially in light air. In heavy air they allow you to "luff drive" and still maintain a working area on the lower 1/3rd of the sail. Personally, I would not have a mainsail without them.
Just my 2c worth

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2007 : 19:48:45

There is an interesting full/partial batten discussion here... by some very experienced sailmakers.

http://www.pineapplesails.com/articles/fullbatt.htm

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3436 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2007 : 20:07:17

Derek,

I have raised the issue about full battens a couple of times with Quantum and they will make it that way if I want it but forget the full arguement they made against going that route. I am going to bring with me a section out of their Cruising Sail technical info that talks about full battens and go over this with them one more time. I think they indicated that the battens would put undo stress on the slugs making the sail a bit harder to raise up or lower unless directly into the wind. Believe another point or two was made including inefficient sail shape in light winds...but I may have mis-understood that point, so I will go over it again with them tomorrow. I believe their partial battens are a bit oversized...but still partial.

Here is a cut and paste from their "Ask the Experts" Website Section regarding one person asking about different sailcloth matls (Mack Sails also has good tech info on same subject.) By the way, in the below, "HA" is Challenge High Aspect Sailcloth.
"
A
In the process of finishing Dacron sailcloth the material is exposed
to heat and pressure which has the effect of shrinking the fibers into a
very dense load bearing structure. This has the effect of locking the
weave in place for the life of the material providing long term
resistance to stretch and distortion. The most stable Dacron is the
material that shrinks the most and becomes the most compact.

Material woven out of Type 52 Dacron fibers in BOTH directions
(lengthwise and across the bolt) shrinks the most (up to 25%) forming
the most stable, durable Dacron sailcloth money can buy. This is all
confirmed by a uniform set of tests used throughout the industry to
quantify stretch on warp, fill and bias at various pounds of load both
before and after fatigue testing.

Challenge's HA style indicated by the .6 or .62 designation ( 4.6, 5.6,
6.62, 7.62, etc) has long been the only sailcloth woven in both
directions out of Type 52 Dacron. Sailcloth stretch characteristics can
vary from "lot" to "lot" but Challenge Dacron is also the most
consistent. This is largely due to the fact it is also the only product
both woven and finished in a modern new facility right here in the USA
under the watchful eyes of Challenge owner Bobby Bainbridge. He is
arguably the industry's most experienced person in the field of
sailcloth manufacture. (Other Dacron material is woven overseas,
finished somewhere else and then packaged and labelled in the US.)

Unfortunately, most sailmakers quote cruising sails out of less
expensive material which is described in glowing terms. This permits
more competitive pricing of their sails. The resultant poor shape
holding is what leads to use of that sad phrase "its just a cruising
sail." We feel a cruiser benefits as much as a racing sailor from good
aerodynamics. A cruiser wants to minimize weather helm, heeling, etc.
and certainly deserves to know his boat is sailing to its potential.

We recently checked the shape of a suit of sails built out of Challenge
HA 8.62 for a Valiant 40 about 10 years ago. The boat had just
completed a lengthly circumnavigation. Although the sails were dirty
and needed some basic maintenance, shape was very close to original and
still very nice. These same sails will be carrying the boat back to the
south Pacific later this year.

Dacron advertized as super cruising Dacron, "blue
water" "passagemaking" including NorDac, will be less stiff and have
a nice "feel" or "hand". The resulting sails will stretch and get deep
and must be reefed sooner. Is that what you want?
"

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3436 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2007 : 22:50:15

Bruce,

Thanks for the link to Pineapple Sails article regarding full and partial battens. Some of what I read is what Quantum personnel also mentioned (ie. regarding the sail slides, light air performance, etc). There were also benefits mentioned regarding full battens such as used with Lazy Jacks.

The article indicates that here is another sailmaker providing both pro and con info regarding full battens...and given the info...it does make one ponder over this a bit.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2007 : 06:58:19

larry,

You will be completely pleased with Quantums service and quality. You will pay for it, but in the long run you will be happy.

Challenge is also a good quality "cloth", Sobstad used it on the sails a few of us ordered before the 2006 Nationals - The Challenge material took 1 and 2 overall.

As for the battens - I'd consider compromising going with a full batten for the top 2 or just the top. You get the shape and light air assistance without as much of the negatives. Also when you talk to them ask them if boat size is any consideration. Quantum has a huge market share in a number of smaller boats where batten size is restricted by class or the size of the boat itself doesn't warrant a need for the full batten. They don't have as much experience in small really heavy boats such as the Catalina 25.

In general, however, these guys are going to steer you in the right direction...Also - what is your average wind? Battens for that light air day are close to worthless if you see 54-7 kts only a small percentage of the time.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2007 : 07:36:12

Larry,
You've got a stock main on your boat now, right? What I'm interested in is the loose foot on the new sail. I've heard folks talking about how great it is and look forward to your take on it. I wonder if a loose foot would cause the sail to stretch more over time?

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2007 : 09:54:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 Larry,
You've got a stock main on your boat now, right? What I'm interested in is the loose foot on the new sail. I've heard folks talking about how great it is and look forward to your take on it. I wonder if a loose foot would cause the sail to stretch more over time?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No way that it causes a sail to stretch more.

There is minimal load in that part of the sail (ie. the foot) and this load doesn't change just because you remove a boltrope i.e get a loose footed main. You still have the same sail controls - outhaul, boom vang etc. so there isn't anything new in this department that would cause extra strecht. Also, you are pulling anything any tighter than before, you are just doing it with less resistance (when tight) or not allowing the sail to conform to the straightness of the boom when loose. So you aren't stretching anymore in this regard either. If you are pulling the sail tighter than normal because it is loose footed, then you weren't trimming well enough (possibly because you couldn't) before. This Additional tension is going to increase the sail efficiency if trimmed correctly which will actually reduce stretch not increase it.

Edited by - Champipple on 11/28/2007 12:12:23

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2007 : 11:31:23

Thanks for the info Duane!

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3436 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2007 : 12:06:54

I'm leaving the office in a few minutes - able to escape earlier than I thought. Interesting wrinkle developed but we have a work-around. My marina is a stickler on rules and enforcing them. ALL contractors must have insurance insured for $1M. This subject came up because I wanted to drop off the info on who was coming to see my boat and needed access to the dock and a parking sticker. I was going to be there about an 1 hr later. That's when the marina guys told me of that rule. I indicated he was only taking measurements...

Anyway, it turns out I can get out of here in a few minutes and I will be able to meet the sail guy and let him onto the dock and then work with him taking the measurements.

The Potomac river area where I am located does have some windy weather but more than it's share of light wind days. I believe that is one factor in why Quantum is recommending only 1 full batten.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2007 : 12:31:56

Most yacht clubs have some sort of a similar bonding requirement. Most big name lofts have that kind of coverage, either by themselves or via the franchise agreement with the parent company. It really is in place for your protection - though it can be a pain.

Edited by - on

millermg
Navigator

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159 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2007 : 14:30:46

Larry,
One effect I've noticed on my full-batten Ullman that drives me crazy is the battens are not tapered. What this means is because the battens are the same stiffness from the luff to the leach, in light winds the battens want to put the draft in the middle of the sail, counter-acting the forward-draft position the sail was cut for. Once enough pressure is on the sail so that the battens can conform to the sail shape, things are good, but that seems to take 5-7 knots of wind minimum. (That doesn't happen in the summer around here very often!) Full battens should be tapered, being more flexible near the luff, and stiffer hear the leach, you should ask Quantum about this. I'm considering tapering my battens my self w/ a belt sander!

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2007 : 16:45:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by millermg
 Full battens should be tapered, being more flexible near the luff, and stiffer hear the leach<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Or for even better performance use different battens for the conditions.

My $0.02:
If you race anything more than beercan in a non-modern sail (ie no huge roach), go with partial battens - I think you have better sail control. If you cruise more than you race, or have a large-roach main (wont work on a C25 anyway), go full batten. With multiple batten sets if you wanna race.

Oh yeah - and if you wanna race, pull the main every time and roll it. Dont store it on the boom, and dont fold it.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2007 : 19:54:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by millermg
 Larry,
One effect I've noticed on my full-batten Ullman that drives me crazy is the battens are not tapered. I'm considering tapering my battens my self w/ a belt sander!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Look into Hobie Battens

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3436 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2007 : 22:39:49

I decided to go sailing after the sail measurements. Temps were in the mid-40s but by 7pm dropped to about 40F. It was a great night !

Here is latest on sails:

The measurements took about 1 1/2 hrs. We dropped the furling rig Genoa and then took the main sail off the boom. They include spreader patches on the main sail and so those dimensions for placement of the patches was also taken.

The story with the battens is that they normally would recommend full battens for a larger boat and one that was doing extended cruises. But did not recommend it for me. The top batten will be a full batten. The others will be partial but....there is partial and then there is a different partial. He indicated the Quantum Main Sail will have partial battens double the length of the partial battens on my stock main sail. The battens that Quantum uses on the cruising sails are the same as on their racing sails. he did not go into details other than say they are of high quality and tapered. The loose foot has one slug and so he sized it with his templates.

Since these are custom sails, we had a discussion on the sizing of the main sail. The stock main sail is undersized in that it is about 9" shorter on the boom, so he is going to size the new main sail 9" longer on the boom and it will also be about 4" longer at the top near the 1st batten to bring it out to the back stay. This adds approximately 6-7 square feet of main sail.

The sail designs are being drafted at their headquarters and they forward it via their website link to Capetown, South Africa to be made up. They should be ready end of December or thereabouts.

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/28/2007 22:40:54

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 08:23:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 
Since these are custom sails, we had a discussion on the sizing of the main sail. The stock main sail is undersized in that it is about 9" shorter on the boom, so he is going to size the new main sail 9" longer on the boom and it will also be about 4" longer at the top near the 1st batten to bring it out to the back stay. This adds approximately 6-7 square feet of main sail.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Sorry Larry but that is bizarre, the boom is the length it is to make the angle of the mainsheet viable, not because there is supposed to be sail back there. Changing the design sail plan and the center of force on a sail plan seems a bit out there to me. Of course I am talking out my butt so maybe it will be great. Don't ever enter a race with that sail, if you win you will get protested.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 09:41:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SailCO26
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by millermg
 Full battens should be tapered, being more flexible near the luff, and stiffer hear the leach<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Or for even better performance use different battens for the conditions.

My $0.02:
If you race anything more than beercan in a non-modern sail (ie no huge roach), go with partial battens - I think you have better sail control. If you cruise more than you race, or have a large-roach main (wont work on a C25 anyway), go full batten. With multiple batten sets if you wanna race.

Oh yeah - and if you wanna race, pull the main every time and roll it. Dont store it on the boom, and dont fold it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'll second that - though pulling it out of the track, rolling it with the foot attached to the boom, tying the roll to the boom and throwing on a cover (has to be made for this type of roll) is just as effective, and a bit easier. Most race sails use a luff tape that fits in the kerf, not a track slug so you really don't have any other options but to pull it out.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 09:44:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Frank Hopper
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 
Since these are custom sails, we had a discussion on the sizing of the main sail. The stock main sail is undersized in that it is about 9" shorter on the boom, so he is going to size the new main sail 9" longer on the boom and it will also be about 4" longer at the top near the 1st batten to bring it out to the back stay. This adds approximately 6-7 square feet of main sail.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Sorry Larry but that is bizarre, the boom is the length it is to make the angle of the mainsheet viable, not because there is supposed to be sail back there. Changing the design sail plan and the center of force on a sail plan seems a bit out there to me. Of course I am talking out my butt so maybe it will be great. Don't ever enter a race with that sail, if you win you will get protested.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Frank is correct, the only change you can make is add more roach (not a measured item on the mainsail) You gain about 5-7 more square feet of area in doing so. Be prepared to take with the back end of the sail hitting the backstay though. The extra sail area down low on the boom, if added isn't going to provide you much of anything in terms of sail power.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3436 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 11:45:40

I am not into racing, though, who knows what the future holds. He did indicate some racers buy sails sized where they do overlap the sail with the backstay. So...first some do not find that objectionable but not sure how it did not vilate the rules...maybe they did not alter the boom length dimension...but because I mainly cruise...he's making the suggestion to increase the sail length on the boom as well.

In regards to the sail hitting the backstay, he was sizing it so that it will come close but probably not hit.
I'll give a call and discuss this some more.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 12:27:54

I'd be careful when adding to the roach because the battens could snag and hang on the backstay. If I hoist my main all the way up, the battens will ocassionally hang on the backstay requiring me to shake the backstay somewhat vigorously to free the sail (usually happens in lighter air). To alleviate my situation, I hoist the main about an inch or two short of a full hoist so the battens miss the backstay.

Edited by - on

millermg
Navigator

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159 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 14:45:57

Did he say why he is suggesting more sail area than the standard (class) main? for cruising you don't need it, for racing it's illegal...There's got to be a reason.

Edited by - millermg on 11/29/2007 14:46:47

Admin
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Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 14:58:02

Garner - check our class rules - there isn't an LP measurement on the main, just a luff and a foot.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3436 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 11:37:59

I discussed this with a buddy that owns a Catalina but races on a friend's larger boat (forget what). His friend also has Quantum sails and his roach was sized where it slightly overlaps the backstay. His battens hang up momentarily. I recall Quantum also indicated that some people order oversized sails where the roach overlaps the backstay.

In discussions today going over this issue with both my buddy and Quantum, all on this forum that mentioned about racing rules, etc it's true that lengthening the sail along the boom is against the rules. But I mainly cruise. Someone once mentioned that he cruises all the time but when he sees another sailboat on the water, then he races. That's a pretty good statement summing it up for me as well. If I were to participate in a race, the race for me would end at the finish line versus whatever is indicated in standings regarding protests, etc. Also, there is probably minimal performance benefit regarding the increased 6-7 sq ft. I know i may get criticism over this but I decided to not revert to the standard cut and opting for the sail as Quantum offered as an option. It does not cost any extra for the full sizing and the rig can handle it with no modifications. The roach as sized for my sail should just miss the backstay versus the 4-5" clearnace that presently exists. I am going to give it a try !

I certainly appreciate all the pointers I received from everyone eons ago in reponse to other postings regarding new sails and also in this posting regarding the concerns regarding racing.

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/30/2007 11:39:44

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3436 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2007 : 05:07:44

Just received an EMail from Quantum. My sails are reaching the completion stage w/ecd 12/21/07 !

Which also means they will be contacting me for shipping/pickup info and...of course the balance due.

Edited by - on

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