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Catalina 22 sinking on Lake Grapevine

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FrankV
Navigator

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USA
134 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/17/2007 : 21:34:47

This Saturday we had gust winds, 15-20. A Catalina 22 back-winded the jib, drove the stern into the water, and sank. All hands got off safely and were rescued by a nice stink potter.

I have some pictures of the re-float, but I don't know how to attach them. Very interesting process.

Let's be careful out there!

Frank Vaughan
250 WK/SR

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2007 : 22:13:43

That brings back some memories...

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2007 : 22:15:53

To learn how to post pictures: Go to the 'Testing Forum' under the Main header 'All Forums'

Would sure like to see your pictures.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2007 : 22:55:52

A back winded jib can drive the nose of the boat into the water and long enough to sink it? I would never of thought that could be possible! I can't even imagine the force required to move such an air volume under water.

Of course I wasn't there and don't want to be judgmental but wouldn't one just simple let the jib sheet go? I guess some other factor(s) came into play like port hatch open, or maybe the guy already had the boat half full of water.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2007 : 23:03:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...and were rescued by a nice stink potter.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Isn't that an oxymoron??

Edited by - Nautiduck on 10/17/2007 23:03:44

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2007 : 23:23:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...and were rescued by a nice stink potter.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Isn't that an oxymoron??

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Watch it there.

We might be around to help you some day!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/17/2007 23:23:51

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2007 : 23:25:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Blackburn
 A back winded jib can drive the nose of the boat into the water and long enough to sink it?...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">He did say the stern... but I'm having trouble picturing that, too.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2007 : 08:49:35

Remember, the C22 has a lot less freeboard than our boats. I also would imagine that there's a whole lot more to the story. Like maybe getting knocked down after an uncontrolled jibe, broadsided by a big wave at the wrong moment, etc. etc.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2007 : 09:32:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Watch it there. We might be around to help you some day! <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

While I complain about them as much as the next guy, when I got de-masted on my catamaran a few years back, the first guys there were the hated PWCs, and the guy who gave me a tow back to my friend's house was in a Boston Whaler. He wouldn't let me pay him anything for the tow, so I left a six pack of good beer on his dock the next time I was out after getting my forestay replaced.

I mostly mutter to myself about non-sailboats, people's hearts are generally in the right place, they just lose sight of them until something goes wrong & they naturally try to help. I figure that most of them simply haven't taken the time to learn the rules & etiquette & so try to keep myself out of their path if I can.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2007 : 13:23:19

We got backwinded last week - ended up with a torn jib. Tried to tack in a 25+ knots.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2007 : 13:56:43

Stuff happens.
Last weekend we were sailing on a J-24 on main alone in winds 25 gusting to 30&change. The skipper was demonstrating highwind gybes to a fairly new keelboat sailor named Barbara and had done half a dozen just fine. THEN... after we had worked our way up close to the dam and as he was emphasizing that hauling in the main prevents a violent gybe he failed to notice the mainsheet tail was in the camcleat as we gybed, unfortunately a gust snuck over the dam at that moment and smacked us hard, we broached, spun, and rounded up before he could get the mainsheet free. Of course it was fun but as with most moments like that all kinds of things could have gone wrong. Very few of us ever wear life jackets and we weren't then either. The beautiful woman was at the grinder position and a J boom is very low, fortunately she went down to the cockpit sole just as the boom came across so she was down out of danger but she did get banged up as the boat broached. Me I was at my usual spot standing at the weather shrouds so it was a non event for me, but the skipper was really embarrassed. High wind sailing is a hoot but it is nice to get to do it on a little lake. Our broach brought a fair amount of water on board I can imagine a 22 having trouble handling what happened to us.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2007 : 14:56:40

Just kidding Dave!

I love boating. People who choose motor boats are our brethren. Someday the Admiral and I will be putting about in a trawler.

Edited by - on

FrankV
Navigator

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USA
134 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2007 : 19:25:06

Here are some pictures:

According to the skier of the boat, they tried to tack, they left the jib cleated on the horn, causing their boat to heel hard over, water came over the stern (it might have washed in over the side) and flooded the cabin. Always sail with the bilge boards down and locked in heavy air!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2007 : 20:12:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by FrankV
 Here are some pictures:

Edited by - on

FrankV
Navigator

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USA
134 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2007 : 20:44:54

Wow, I really messed this up. "Skier" should be Skipper.

Thanks, Frank for fixing my picture error!

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2007 : 17:26:37

Cool pix. Thanx for posting them.
Couple years ago on our lake, on one of our typically windy days, a very experienced skipper had his 24' San Juan sink due to a broach. I heard that the sinking was due to a jammed jib sheet, compounded by open companionway. Cabin and cockpit filled, boat sank in less than a minute. The local firedepartment raised the boat with air bags. That San Juan still sails (very fast and capably) on our lake.

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2007 : 20:21:19

This may be as good a place as any to post this. I am fully aware that this is subject to opinion and discussion. I was taught to cleat a line by taking a couple of turns around the horn cleat and then giving a half turn to the line for the final turn. This "locks it in nice and tight." I have noticed that most european sailors do not take the half turn when cleating. They rely on the power of the line jammed against itself into the cleat. Some years ago a friend of mine, a professional seaman on offshore tugs, and port captain for his company, sailed with me. He observed me putting in the half turn and remarked "you know,that would get you fired at my company." I also used to go out with an old Puerto Rican fisherman, now taking out tourists, and observed that he had no horn cleats on his boat. He had a pin rail at the mast and thumb cleats for the jib. All of his lines were secured with one turn around the pin and the line partially pulled through between itself and the boat. I have pretty well broken myself of the habit of hard cleatingthe jib sheets, but still have trouble convincing myself with halyards at the mast. But come to think about it, every cleat on our boats except the horn cleats are designed to be able to be thrown off easily. It makes you wonder if, in a wild broach, that hard cleated line milght not be a real problem. I am thinking now about one instance in which I had to throw off the main and fortunately it was in a cam cleat and went right away. If I had had to go into the cockpit and wrestle with a hard cleated line, as you might with the jib, we could have had a real disaster. Just a thought. Maybe some of those books I read so many years ago were just wrong.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2007 : 22:46:27

I have never understood horn cleats for anything but docklines and belaying bitter ends and a locking wrap is a good idea on those. I have never had them on a coaming. It isn't that I have been afraid of not being able to cast them off quickly, although obviously one can't, but because it means a skipper is not trimming his sails. I can't imagine anyone who trims sails as often as I think they need to be trimmed would hassle with a horn cleat. I am the guy with self tailing winches who doesn't use them because they are a hassle to trim, give me a couple of wraps on a winch and a clam cleat and I am happy.
Also the only Euro cleats I have seen are jam cleats, Catalina horns are not.

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2007 : 01:20:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">crcalhoon Posted - 10/19/2007 : 20:21:19 <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"><blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">They rely on the power of the line jammed against itself into the cleat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Exactly.

It was suggested on this site, about two years ago that you don't need to do any X's or crosses on a cleat. To secure a sheet, do three turns around the horn and give a sharp tug...the line will jam itself.
Nice thing about it is, this procedure makes un-doing the line as simple as a tug on the line - in the opposite direction. A beautiful thing for single-handing.
I've credited this site for winning me the Tuesday Night racing series, the 3 loop and tug process for securing the jib sheets was part of our winning strategy. (line management, heads-up sailing)

I think it was Jim B that told me (this site) about this strategy, and I believe we were discussing what angle to put jam cleats at for optimal efficiency. If the three turns and tug process had not worked as neatly and as efficiently as it does, I would have installed jam cleats.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2007 : 07:03:43

Trying to recall my days of owning a C22, seems the port cockpit locker is more critical than the companionway to taking on water. If it isn't latched, it can swing open in a knockdown and take on lots of water quickly and is fully open to the interior.

Edited by - on

Chris Z
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2007 : 10:33:00

I have raced small boats for a long time, the first day out on my C25 I knew the horn cleats needed to go. I have installed Harken Cam cleats on risers in front of the winch. This alows for easy trimming and easy cast off. It also comes in real handy when having guests who don't have boating experience. I had my cousin's son trimming the jib in just a few minutes after being out.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2007 : 11:36:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart
 Trying to recall my days of owning a C22, seems the port cockpit locker is more critical than the companionway to taking on water. If it isn't latched, it can swing open in a knockdown and take on lots of water quickly and is fully open to the interior.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">My thought exactly. The C-25 "dumpster" presents the same issue, especially in a broach to port. The lid could fall open, and the locker is open to the bilge and could fill in a couple of heartbeats. The first effect would be to negate the ballast, keeping her on her side. The second effect would be...

Keep that puppy latched and pinned (with an unlatched padlock or whatever).

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2007 : 12:36:05

I agree with Frank on the efficiency of cam cleats (with risers) over horn cleats - you can uncleat a lot quicker for rapid jib trimming. Those horns were the first thing to disappear when we bought TSU.
BTW my crew much prefer Ronstan cleats over Harkens and they certainly seem to last longer (cheaper too

)

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2007 : 13:20:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 ...BTW my crew much prefer Ronstan cleats over Harkens and they certainly seem to last longer (cheaper too

)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I chose Ronstans because I suspected the rounded tops of the cams would make it easier to snap in a loaded sheet. May or may not be true, but the worked nicely.

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2007 : 06:59:17

I would never secure either a jib sheet or main sheet to a horn cleat by choice - too difficult to get it off in an emergency. I have self-tailing winches on Quiet Time, and prefer them to any other jib sheet system. Of course there is a weight and speed penalty with self-tailers, so I suppose racers don't like them.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2007 : 08:32:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by lcharlot
 I would never secure either a jib sheet or main sheet to a horn cleat by choice - too difficult to get it off in an emergency. I have self-tailing winches on Quiet Time, and prefer them to any other jib sheet system. Of course there is a weight and speed penalty with self-tailers, so I suppose racers don't like them.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hey Larry,
How you been? You need to get active on the forum again, we really miss your input.

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