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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Racing Forum

how much wind?

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/21/2007 : 23:57:14

Experienced racers....

In how much wind would you fly a 0.5 oz symmetrical spinnaker on a C25 standard rig? Ofshore pacific ocean. Double handed or single handed.

straight downwind?

on a reach?

what about at night?

I've had mine single handed in about 12 knots on a reach and it was a handful.

I can sail with the apparant wind just forward of the beam but get a lot of heeling and I don't want to dip the sail, turn downwind in the gusts and blast.

Its fun but scary especially at night, alone, offshore.

I'm thinking if I'm down to my #3 jib (110) then for sure the spin is too much. If I'm flying the #2 (135) and the course is downwind, spin is OK.

Indiscipline 1978 FK SR #398

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5894 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2007 : 09:05:01

Jim, I'm not experienced flying a spinnaker, but recently bought a 0.5 oz. symmetrical, and just finished rigging my boat to fly it, and am looking forward to using it next season. I can only tell you what I've been told. The 0.5 oz. is considered a light air chute, and 12 kt winds is about it's limit. It can't take the stress of higher winds. It sure would be nice if I could learn to fly it singlehanded, or even double handed for that matter.

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kevinmac
Admiral

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USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2007 : 13:13:51

I have no knowledge of this subject, just a datapoint. I recently purchase a .5 oz symetrical spinnaker from our local North sailmaker. I have yet to rig my boat to fly it, nor have I ever flown a spinnaker in any boat.

But here is the datapoint. The sailmaker, who is not a sales pitch kind of guy, said in passing (he was actually thinking out loud about which sail material to recommend to me) that the sail I bought should be good to 20 knots, perhap a bit more. That is NOT talking about what point of sail you are sailing, only the ability of the sail to take the wind.

Of course, he could be wrong, I could have misheard, I could have halucinated, whatever, I just thought I'd pass on what I think he said.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2007 : 07:16:44

A half ounce kite on a boat our size should go until about 15 kts. It would probably hold 20, but that is the top end of the range and the kite (racing wise) wouldn't be good for much more than a season at that level.

Your issue however will not be can I hold the kite - I have no doubt in Jim's ability to fly a spinnaker single handed in 18kts of wind.

The real question is, can you get it down as the breeze builds. In the case of a spinnaker, specifically a symetrical kite, while you might be able to carry it to 18 -20 kts, the ability of the kite to actually take the load isn't going to be your issue. Dousing it in increasing winds will become problematic and unsafe when shorthanded.

It isn't as simple as lashing the tiller and going forward or running the kite behind the main to bring it down into the cabin. The second you let the guy run around the boat you need to have a hand on the other side of the boat to start bringing it in. You need to have someone on the spinnaker halyard to drop it and you need someone to steer through it. In 10 or even 12 kts is daunting but doable.

Once that is all done you need to go forward and clean up the foredeck to tack.

The second problem I foresee is the need to gybe quickly. Who is going to steer while you take the pole off the guy spin the kit around and reattach everything.

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kevinmac
Admiral

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USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2007 : 10:06:07

Duane,

So I have no idea what I am talking about here, but would a spinnaker sock make dousing it easier?

Does not change the other issues, I am just interested to know what you think about socks.

I know, you prefer argyle...

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wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2007 : 12:55:05

If your going to use your spinnaker as a cruiser mode a douser works fine and can be a safer deal when short handed, but for racing it takes more time and is just one more moving part to get jammed. I had a douser on my Asym and I took that sucker off, I got tired of getting hit in the head with the hard shout and trying to control the sheets and douser at the same time is very difficult, especially in high winds above 10 knots as Duane mentioned above. I always look at fling an spinnaker at answering the question "Are you ready to loose the money you've spent when your forced to cut it away to save your boat"?

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Admin
Forum Admin

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460 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2007 : 13:49:21

Bill makes some really good points. A spin sock could be a really good idea shorthanded - but they aren't really something you see with symetrical kites. They leave a lot of weight aloft and mess with the spinnaker trim so you don't want to use them while racing.

Even with a douser/sock you have to deal with the gybe. Let me step it through for you -

Weather Twing off, boom has to go centerline, boat has to turn, pole comes off at the mast, sheet has to be let out, guy has to be brought in, pole also comes off the guyline. The pole is then put on the other sheet, the new twing has to go on, the boom has to continue through to the other board and the boat has to be slowly steere through the entire turne. If you have check stays those need to be adjusted, the down haul and topping lift most likely need to be adjusted.

It ain't easy for one person.

As Bill also said, you have to be ready to cut away at any time....but never - ever - ever let guy of the line connected to the pole. Always leave that a foot or more off of the forestay. I learned the hard way to always have a knife, on me (not on board) in any wind over 10kts. It is pretty rare that you are cutting to save your boat and you usually won't lose the sail - just the line. However you might need the knife just to get the sail down.

I think if you really want to fly the spin while solo it needs to be a asym.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2007 : 17:52:30

I've been practicing solo and I can do it. I have a sock and an autopilot. I don't have twingers. I've practiced at night too, all offshore, in seas up to about 3 feet.

What I've been doing to get it down in big winds is to just turn downwind, blow the sheets 10 feet and let it billow out in front of the boat, then pull down the sock as quick as I can.

Solo, I've moved the spin halyard to the foredeck. All the sock lines are on the foredeck.

I can gybe solo. It takes more time.

Dousing is easy with the sock.

I'm going to run the sock in the San Diego - Ensenada race, it is the way I've been practicing.

So far, it takes me about 10 minutes to hoist solo, 2 or 3 minutes to douse, plus another 5 or so to clean up the foredeck but of course we're sailing under AP by then.

I've never hoisted so far with the jib up (I'll try to do that in the race).

Wind forecasts for the race are SW 10 to 15 moving to NW 10 to 15, seas 3 to 6 day, 4 to 7 at night. Its a due S course, maybe a little SE. If the winds in the 15 and up range, especially at night, I'll douse and run under poled out 150 or 155.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2007 : 17:59:58

Oh yeah, I will be racing doublehanded with Joe (Sloopsmitten). But the vast majority of my practice has been single handed, in light air, in the early evenings.

I've flown the spin almost every night single handed in September training for this event.

Once you are set and trimmed and you have sea room, actually sailing with the spin in 10 - 12 knots of wind is a hoot!

I can point up with the apparant wind just forward of the beam.

One of my biggest problems is that my sheets are too stretchy, and I am afraid of breaking a stanchion.

I may try to jury rig some twingers.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2007 : 06:53:01

Try it with the Jib up and Joe on board prior to racing. There is a lot going on in a race and with a douse. You might not be able to go as far down as you want with the jib up either.

Twings should be easy to rig. Connect the following block to a line.

http://www.layline.com/product/3744/747

run the line through a fiddleblock/cam cleat attached to a car on the rail

http://www.layline.com/product/2800/735

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