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Pictures of the Garhauer mid-ship's cleats

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
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Initially Posted - 07/07/2007 : 21:01:18

Tom,
I took some pictures this afternoon, sorry it took so long to get them to you.

Starboard side:

And port:

We haven't had a chance to use them yet, but expect to put the boat in the marina next weekend.

David
C-250 Mainsheet Editor

Sirius Lepak
1997 C-250 WK TR #271 --Seattle area Port Captain --

Edited by - on

AADIVER
Admiral

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Response Posted - 07/07/2007 : 22:45:59

How do you intend to use them?

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atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/07/2007 : 23:55:56

Thanks, Those look awesome. I need to get a pair. Frank, they would be ideal for setting up spring lines. I prefer to use 1/2" 3 strand dock lines as they have a lot of stetch. I know it is overkill, but I like to use 6-8 points to secure the boat. I thnk this is better than the standard powerboat setup of 3 heavy lines (double braid) and the tiny walmart fenders!

Tom.

Edited by - atgep on 07/07/2007 23:58:43

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 07/08/2007 : 00:49:53

Frank,
I intend to use them to make my approach & departure easier from my new slip. I have to make a 90° turn with minimal clearance both coming & going. My slip is the 2nd to last on a downriver approach. If I blow the approach, I hit a 40' Formosa. If I miss a cleat on the dock, I stand a good chance of hitting the Formosa, or the main pier. When we're tied up there's only about 8' between us. With a mid-ship's cleat, as long as you get it attached to the dock, you can come in under power and not have to worry about lateral movement, the line attached to the cleat will just swing you right into the dock. Since I'll have to be dealing with river current, tidal flow as well as windage, I'm trying to make this as easy as on myself as I can.

Once I'm tied up, I intend to use my port side cleat to pull the boat away from the dock while the rest of my lines hold me near it, pulling in the other direction. Although the river current should do all the holding off for me, I don't know that for sure, and since we're right at the mouth of the river, I expect the flow to reverse 2x daily.

Oh yeah, at the last big WM sale we picked up some much larger fenders. Our last experience when recovering the boat proved, um...exciting with the fenders we had. Now I've got nearly a dozen fenders to choose from depending on the situation. This is probably overkill, and I'll probably cull some as we go, but for the time being, I've got enough fenders to keep nearly anything away from my boat.

Edited by - delliottg on 07/08/2007 00:52:45

AADIVER
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Response Posted - 07/08/2007 : 10:17:18

Gotcha. But why not simply install permanent cleats midship, port and starboard, at the rails? That's what I did; I'll post a pic later today. As to the Garhauer track cleat, isn't there the possibility that the cleat would pull loose from the track? Someone posted that the cleat isn't secure in the post hole.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 07/08/2007 : 12:12:29

The biggest reason is that I don't have to drill any holes in the boat. I already have enough holes that were unprofessionally done that leak.

I find that the cleat is pretty secure on the track, although admittedly I haven't used them for real yet. As long as you tighten down the thumbwheel into the detent in the track, they should be as secure as the jib cars, more so since the cars are held in place by a spring, the cleats are screwed down. Well, screwed up I guess, the screw moves down, but the cleat moves up so it's entire length is pressed against the underside of the track. It has more than twice the surface area of the jib cars, and spans around three of the bolts.

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 07/08/2007 : 13:42:12

David, I think I understand Franks concern.

However I see no problem if your intent is to place a load on the cleat that runs fore and aft but not laterally.

The most likely max load is when the boat is being brought to a stop using the mid sheet cleat, and that load would be pretty close to fore & aft.

When the load is directly abeam, then it could be a problem, however, for the load to be abeam, it would most likely come from windage when tied up, and that is typically not a sudden nor very heavy load, and I belive you indicated that you intend to use the cleats for spring lines. This is not the traditional 'spring line' which would run from the bow or stearn towards the other end of the boat ashore.

Your slip is certainly a challange, one that I envy!

We tend to use the full range of movement for the sheet blocks on the traveler for sail trim, so, despite the ease of installation, I'll take the other method.

I just purchased 2 6" SS cleats that will be setup as Frank indicated: I'm not averse to making holes in the boat, but certainly understand the reluctance, and because of this forum I know how to do it so they don't turn into leak points.

Frank, if you put your cleats at the rails, did you use anykind of underside load spreading widgets?

Paul

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AADIVER
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Response Posted - 07/08/2007 : 13:49:05

This is where I placed 'em; not ss and no leaks...so far! A single line attached to this midship cleat keeps my boat parallel to the dock, closer in a bit aft. Okay for a temporary tie-up.

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 07/09/2007 : 06:42:36

Thanks Frank, any underside strengthening?

Nicely dressed boat; May I suggest you put a fender on the sliding cabin top under the canvas, it stops puddling in the rain and helps keep it clean.

Paul.

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AADIVER
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Response Posted - 07/09/2007 : 13:50:27

"...any underside strengthening?"

Nope, just screwed 'em in with Marine Goop. Probably would pop out if put under a heavy strain, but then so would the track cleats. I only secure to them when the boat's completely stopped at the dock.

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/09/2007 : 14:28:14

I would recommend some sort of strong backing for a cleat that holds a spring line. On our C250, we use the outboard to manuever with the spring line attached, so the line and winch (we attach to the winch) are under a fair load. I'd hate to have a metal cleat flying through the air.

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johnsonp
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Response Posted - 07/09/2007 : 15:36:22

Frank
I'm not sure what size bolts or screws you used but I imagine you used the largest you could fit in the holes on the cleats.
If you don't lift your boat with these cleats then the fasteners are mostly in shear and will take a good dynamic load since you have a line attach which is stretching.
To test your design attach your setup to the cleat on the boat and the dock ,attach a safety line,put engine in reverse see what kind of load your setup would take. If you feel scientific attach a fish scale and see what kind of load your pulling on the cleat.
This called an Engineering test.....most people test their design any way some admit failure some don't.
paulj

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/09/2007 : 17:26:49

Paul, I appreciate the engineering test concept. I point out, though, that there is not a single piece of hardware on our boats that Catalina did not have through-bolted with a strong backing plate or SS washers. Rope clutches, winches, rails, tracks, basically everything. This despite the fact that almost all of these devices are subjected to horizontal, not vertical, sheer. It is a safety issue and, as such, over-engineering is the name of the game. Who knows what some future owner may do? A clutch failure and they decide to tie the main halyard to a screwed-in cleat. Vertical shear and maybe a big problem. Everything on a boat should be overbuilt. My two cents.

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johnsonp
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Response Posted - 07/09/2007 : 21:37:45

Frank
If you do not put bolts and washers on that cleat immediately I could not recommend you for the tech committee.
Of course you could put a tag on it saying to be used by FRANK ONLY..
then this surely should resolve any safety questions.
paulj
ps Make sure the tag is written in bilingual.

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AADIVER
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Response Posted - 07/09/2007 : 23:09:38

Take another look at the pic I posted: there's no underneath at that location for bolts, washers, and nuts on a 2001 250. That's why my cleat is screwed in with 2" screws. Also, I don't use the cleat for a spring line. It's strictly to secure the boat temporarily at our holding tank pump out dock when I'm single handing. My spring line runs from a midship dock cleat to my bow cleat.
Compared to you East Coast/Florida/Great Lakes folks, our conditions here in Long Beach, CA are very mild by comparison, so we don't have the potential strain on gear and fittings that you have.

Edited by - AADIVER on 07/10/2007 09:31:09

KD4AO
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Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 08:02:40

Back to the Garhauer track cleats, I put a couple of them on my boat about 3 months ago and feel they are a good choice for additional cleats. The track is well fastened and will withstand considerable load. Of course we don't know how much load the cabin to hull fastening will take.
The problem I am trying to solve is unique to those of us whose boats are in the water full time and may be exposed to very high wind storms (hurricanes). Not a problem for trailer sailors. Manufacturers of small boats do not provide large enough cleats for several lines nor do they provide enough cleats. I feel that all boats should have strong midship cleats large enough to hold 2 or 3 lines (1/2" to 5/8" for the C250 and others up to 12000lbs or so. Then the stearn and bow cleats should be large enough for 3 lines of at least 1/2".
I speak from experience although I could still be to conservative. I watched my C27 break 2 stearn lines fastened to a single cleat, down a piling, break 2 bow lines and swing from the other bow lines onto my neighbors small boat, sink it and proceed to tear up the bow rail and hull against the sea wall. The wind speed was 150 to 185 knots. More and better lines may have prevented most of the damage and I will never use 3 strand docklines when a storm is possible, they simply pull apart in the middle.
I remember looking at the boat before the hurrican and trying to figure where I could fasten long lines from a couple of pilings further away but I didn't want to tie to the rails or around the mast is no good when it is stepped on the deck, so I gave up. Still don't know what else I could have done, but now I will try most anything. (Except cleats fastened with screws) Bob

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 12:07:51

Bob, I wonder if there is some way to attach lines to the chain plates that the shrouds are attached too. That whole system seems pretty beefy. Same thing for the bow plate and the aft mast stay plates. Maybe put on some of those "opening" chain links and then run line through them or through a ring attached to them. Those seem to me to be the toughest parts of our boats.

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 13:17:38

Bob, a recent Boat Us magazine showed securing with multiple lines, but I agree, the weakest link would be the cleat. You could run a strap between the port and stbd cleats to spread the load from one side to both cleats, but again size may forbid that too.

Ok, I'll put another check mark on the plus side of owning a swinger!

paul

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willy
Captain

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Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 13:40:03

Dave or Bob,
Got an item number for those Garhauer cleats?
Willy

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 13:51:14

Willy,
Here's the link to the [url="http://garhauermarine.com/catalog_process.cfm?cid=78"]Garhauer cleats[/url].

We got the 1" ones for $89 delivered for the pair.

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KD4AO
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Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 14:12:36

Randy, good ideas, I will look at ways to use the chain plates. Paul, I saw an article, maybe BoatUS, I seem to remember something about 1 heavy line loop on a cleat then several lighter lines fastened it. Thanks for the suggestions, lets all hope no more hurricanes. But I know I will be better prepared.

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 14:23:14

I've got these, but then I'm partial to Stailnless Steel.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/59132/377%20710/0/cleat/Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/90/WMPrice|0?N=377%20710&Ne=0&Ntt=cleat&Ntk=Primary%20Search&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&Nao=90&Ns=WMPrice|0&keyword=cleat&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=null&subdeptNum=null&classNum=null

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 14:38:58

Nice URL...

If you turn format mode to "prompt", you can highlight text and insert a [url="http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/59132/377%20710/0/cleat/Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/90/WMPrice"]link [/url]instead of a URL so it doesn't force everyone to scroll.

Edited by - delliottg on 07/10/2007 14:41:29

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 15:32:26

Thanks.

[url="http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/59132/377%20710/0/cleat/Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/90/WMPrice|0?N=377%20710&Ne=0&Ntt=cleat&Ntk=Primary%20Search&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&Nao=90&Ns=WMPrice|0&keyword=cleat&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=null&subdeptNum=null&classNum=null"]Stainless Steel Rail Cleat[/url]

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johnsonp
Admiral

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Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 20:39:32

Just in case some of you do not remember Rule 26b.
light duty working load......625#
medium duty working load.....1250#
heavy duty working load......2500#

paulj

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AADIVER
Admiral

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Response Posted - 07/10/2007 : 22:46:35

This is a posting test; I think I've lost my internet connection.

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