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Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/23/2007 : 00:00:24

OK, last Monday night there was an incident during a race that caused a little damage. Two boats came together and a mast was bent. The two parties are working out the situation, but I thought I would bring it up here to see what you all think.

It started as (we will call him boat A) missed rounding the first mark due to avoiding some traffic and ended up in irons and at almost a dead stop very close to the mark. Boat B was approaching the mark. The helmsman on Boat B is known for sometimes a bit too much aggressiveness and followed a course straight for the mark rounding. He was on starboard tack and clearly had right of way. It almost appears as if he did not see boat A. They came together with boat A's boom hitting boat B's upper shrouds and causing damage to the mast at the spreaders. Boat A was swinging in the wind and was out of control. Boat B had clearly enough room to steer clear but probably did not see the danger in the heat of the race.

The owner of Boat B is now claiming no responsibility and wants reimbursed for a new mast, rub rail, and hull damage. Boat A had some minor damage to rub rail and is willing to pay for half the costs of boat B.

How would you rule in this case? Should boat A be fully responsible for the accident because they caused the incident? Should boat B be fully responsible for not being aware of the situation and steering clear? Should both A and B split all costs and leave to fight another day?

I should say that both parties at this point are sitting down to figure this all out and are at this point still friends. I have mixed feelings about all this as I'm torn between two friends and how I would react if I found myself in this situation. If I were boat A I can't see how I could change the outcome. If I were boat B, I certainly would not have put either boat in harms way for a club race and would have steered clear. But maybe as it appears, boat B did not react fast enough and could not steer clear?

Give us your opinion!

Turk

www.turk.mysailboatblog.com
2003 C250 WK #663
Northeast Ohio
Mosquito Lake/Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5894 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2007 : 10:28:03

Your question is making me reach back almost 40 years to the tort law that I studied in law school, but haven't used much since.

Under the doctrine of "comparative negligence," which is applied in most states, a judge or jury (the "finder of fact") would determine whether only one party was solely at fault for the damage, or whether the fault should be attributed to both parties. If the finder of fact believes both parties were partially responsible for the damages, then they would proceed to determine the extent of each party's fault. If they believe the skipper of Boat B was primarily responsible for the damages, and the skipper of Boat A was only minimally responsible, then they might hold the skipper of Boat B liable for 90% of the damages, and hold the skipper of Boat A liable for only 10%.

IMHO, that's about the way I think it should be resolved, give or take up to about 10% either way.

A boat that's either dead in the water or drifting slowly out of control is the nautical equivalent of an automobile that hits a fire hydrant. If you drive your car into a fire hydrant, you can't blame the fire hydrant, because the fire hydrant is unable to get out of your way.

Under the racing rules, each boat has a bottom-line obligation to avoid damage wherever possible. If a boat is either dead in the water or drifting slowly out of control, he is unable, as a practical matter, to get out of the way of the other boat. The skipper of Boat B appears to be the only boat that was able to do anything to avoid the collision.

The skipper of Boat B has "some 'splainin to do" as to why he didn't see and avoid hitting an almost fixed object, 25 feet long and about 30 feet high. He has an absolute obligation to maintain an effective lookout for other vessels. To say that he just got caught up in the heat of the race isn't going to help him. That might explain the accident, but it won't excuse it.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2007 : 15:10:22

What did the protest committee say? The insurance companies usually will refer to that in deteriming who pays whom

Edited by - on

kevinmac
Admiral

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USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2007 : 18:56:44

If it happened as was described, Boat B had a clear chance to avoid the collision, and was too agressive/misjudged. I would say boat B pays for all of his own damage, and in a world that was fair would fix boat A.

Like Dwayne said, what did the protest committee say?

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2007 : 20:27:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Champipple
 What did the protest committee say? The insurance companies usually will refer to that in determining who pays whom
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well, we are not that sophisticated to have a protest committee although . . . This makes a great time to put one together to look at this issue. I didn't think insurance companies covered a boat if involved in a race - am I wrong? I always feared the day it happened to me and something serious happens. Will the insurance cover issues when involved in a race?

We do have several race organizers who I am gonna ask to get involved. I don't think Boat A is at fault and as you point out, maybe the race organizer should get involved as the protest committee to help settle any hard feelings on both sides.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2007 : 07:50:06

My coverage includes racing. Something I didn't know when I started racing the Catalina 3 years ago. I had called the insurance guy to ask and was told that my particular policy had it as stadard, others have it as riders too.

I've seen many clubs and groups such as yours hold protest hearings once a month. They bring in a judge and then fill the other two seats with guys who were on the water but not involved or maybe racers who weren't racing that day etc.

Other clubs send a couple of guys to judges school. Other just grab three guys (or gals) not inolved to hear the case. I'd check with US Sailing to see what other places are doing.

Edited by - Champipple on 06/24/2007 08:15:08

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2007 : 13:40:17

IMHO Boat B was 100% responsible for the accident. It is one of sailing's fundamental rules that you avoid a collision. His insurance company should pay to have both boats repaired (my boat was involved in a port/starboard collision a few years back - I wasn't on board - where neither boat kept a lookout and the port tack boat rammed TSU just back of the bow. The port tacker's insurance paid for both boat's repair.)
As far as our protest committees go, the race chairman asks 3 of the more experienced sailors to sit on it(usually from fleets not involved in the process).

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2007 : 16:49:22

I'm on the 100% B bandwagon... First responsibility is to avoid collision, regardless of all other rules, and only one boat could do that at the moment. The fact that A maybe shouldn't have gotten into irons near the mark does not, in my opinion, make him responsible. There was a period of seconds where B could have avoided, and they must.

I'm even a little surprised at Derek's outcome--it seems to me starboard was not keeping watch, either. The thing he hit could have been a canoe. He should have signalled, and then, if necessary, turned. I'd call that one 60-40.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/24/2007 16:50:32

Champipple
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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2007 : 20:21:58

The story seems a bit odd or maybe lacking details. Alpha was in Irons yet Bravo had enough wind to barrel in? How did Alpha miss rounding the mark due to traffic. If he's on Starboard it would be the layline and it becomes a parade - he has the same wind as Bravo. If he's on port (more likely) he reaches down and ducks the boats on the layline and tacks over into the next gap. Why didn't Alpha hail. How can Bravo be on a layline and not either steer from the lowside or have a jib trimmer down low who can keep watch? If it was light enough to put Alpha into Irons he should have had mostly low crew. What about any overlap, was Alpha within the 2 boatlengths? How did the Boom get in the way (this really perplexes me.)? Sounds like a very odd situation. and the last question / how long has boat Alpha been racing?

Both boats should be kicked out of the race. Bravo for 14B. Alpha for failure to keep clear however there seem to be a few pieces missing from the puzzle.

Edited by - Champipple on 06/25/2007 09:30:16

bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2007 : 08:55:49

I'm having trouble visualizing how 'boat A's boom {hit} boat B's upper shrouds' while boat A is in irons. If A is in iron the boom would be centered over the middle of the boat. For Boat B's upper shroud to get tangled in the boom, Boat B is either much, much smaller than A or was heeling (a lot) - in either case I don't get it.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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3321 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2007 : 09:48:27

Dave - quite frankly I was surprised at the settlement.
The first thing that the port tacker said was "sorry, that's all my fault and I'll pay for the damage" We had a hole in the bow and a bent pulpit and rubrail, he had a destroyed bow pulpit and stem fitting.
The worst part was me sitting on the RC boat (as PRO) and watching the whole scenario unfold.

Someone mentioned how hard it is to find competent boatyard help on an inland lake. We are so lucky at Canyon Lake as we have a local hot-shot racer who does magnificent repairs in his boatyard.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2007 : 12:56:23

I always tell new sailors (whether I'm right or not) that the port-starboard thing, and other rules of the road, are not intended to establish inviolable "right-of-way." The are intended to prevent problems by establishing which boat should maintain course ("stand on") and which should change course ("give way") to prevent the old fake-right-fake-left-crunch problem. (...also known as "shall we dance?") When either skipper is in doubt that the other is doing the right thing, it's his responsibility to signal. If he gets no response, it becomes his responsibility to act. This is collision avoidance via establishing order--not "right of way."

Now, in racing, the rules also apply to "the game", but collision avoidance trumps "the game", and nothing about "the game" is considered in an admiralty court (which is where you'll end up if somebody gets hurt).

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2007 : 14:35:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Champipple
 The story seems a bit odd or maybe lacking details. Alpha was in Irons yet Bravo had enough wind to barrel in? How did Alpha miss rounding the mark due to traffic. If he's on Starboard it would be the layline and it becomes a parade - he has the same wind as Bravo. If he's on port (more likely) he reaches down and ducks the boats on the layline and tacks over into the next gap. Why didn't Alpha hail. How can Bravo be on a layline and not either steer from the lowside or have a jib trimmer down low who can keep watch? If it was light enough to put Alpha into Irons he should have had mostly low crew. What about any overlap, was Alpha within the 2 boatlengths? How did the Boom get in the way (this really perplexes me.)? Sounds like a very odd situation. and the last question / how long has boat Alpha been racing?

Both boats should be kicked out of the race. Bravo for 14B. Alpha for failure to keep clear however there seem to be a few pieces missing from the puzzle.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Let me clarify! The first mark due to squirrly wind conditions tuned into a downwind run. As alpha approached on a port tack he had to duck a smaller boat on starboard. The duck caused him to miss the mark and to fall to the left of the mark. As he passed the mark he jibbed to port and he did a quick but out of control 180. His jib was out and he was pointing into the wind and in irons, with his jib pulling him another 90 (he turned a full 270 after the mark. Bravo was coming in on starboard tack(jib and main on port side probably blocking his view of Alpha. This is the point they hit. I can only speculate that as Alpha kept turning, his boom would have been on the starboard side and clipped bravo as he rotated through 270 degrees.

This is what I'm guessing happened. Getting into irons was not caused by missing the mark, it was caused by the 180 degree jib into the wind. Either way, they were stopped. But you can see how bravo could not have anticipated where alpha was going as the turn was violent and quick. After talking to the alpha crew, I think I am beginning to get a better handle on what happened. Also, by reviewing the above description, I can see that alpha may indeed have more involvement in this than first appears! We sailed in 12-18 knot wind that day and it was no picnic.

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2007 : 14:38:54

Also, both boats retired from the race. Both captains have a lot of experience but alphas crew did not have much experience and lost control of the jib and the turn.

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2007 : 20:19:41

That adds a bit more to the story for sure. Sounds like Alpha did a "Chicken Jibe", which is basically a 270 degree tack (and in high winds is a very safe thing to do - if you're cruising). He got caught in irons because his main was out all the way probably and he didn't have enough power to get him through the tack. Meanwhile B comes barreling across Alphas bow just as Alpha comes through the wind and the boom goes goes crashing violently into B's shrouds as the main catches the wind. For this to happen these boats were **really, really ** close. I think that Alpha shares in the blame here as he was a port tacker and did not give way to the starboard tacker that was bearing down on him. He should not have tacked. He tacked right into B. That he was in irons doesn't matter. Plus A it sounds like Alpha may have been inside the 2 boat length zone so he gave up any rights he had (which wasn't much) when he tacked. At least I think that's correct. B of course could have headed upwind to safety at anytime but I guess he didn't want to miss the mark (was it a port rounding or starboard?). Not seeing Alpha is certainly no excuse and in fact would make him even more culpable if he claimed it since he must keep a watch out for other boats. How could he NOT see a port tacker duck another boat right in front of him? Even so, per racing rules I think Alpha is much more at fault than I originally thought. Quite simply Alpha should not have tacked when he did.

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/25/2007 : 21:36:05

And your last remark is how the final outcome has been determined. Alpha has agreed he should not have jibbed so close to the mark and also agrees HE did not see beta's boat running to the mark. He basically has turned into beta. Now, it still is not so cut and dry as it sounds, and I feel alpha does not agree to being fully responsible. Alas, he has agreed to pay full cost of the repair to beta's boat ($1250) and has also made the statement that he will not race in our fleet again. He is not so mad about paying the cost to beta, he just doesn't feel the risks to his boat are not worth the "type" of sailing that is going on in our fleet. That is too bad.

I guess we all take risks to enjoy our sport. We stress our rigs and put our boats in harms way. I guess you have to be prepared to pay the price for mistakes made.

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

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Response Posted - 06/25/2007 : 22:15:41

It seems to me that 'B' should acknowledge some fault of his in this since he should have been able to avoid the collision. Alpha should not have to shoulder all the blame and cost. From what you've described 'B' sounds dangerous - especially for Beer Can racing where not all racers are experienced or know the racing rules (not that racing rules would've mattered here).

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2007 : 07:29:47

As long as we're talking about avoiding collisions... There's a piece in the new Sail Magazine (about a sailboat and a barge in Minn.) that points out the importance of standing on when that's your duty. This guy didn't, and almost paid the ultimate price. The principle doesn't apply in this case, but it supports my earlier post. And it almost misses, but finally brings up another critical omission in that case (not this one)--getting on the VHF! When you're concerned about a commercial vessel and unsure of his intentions, TALK TO HIM--let him know what and where you are, where you're going, and ask him what he'd prefer you to do. That brain cramp, more than anything, almost cost some lives.

(I guess this is the wrong forum for this...)

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

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Response Posted - 06/26/2007 : 07:40:04

Dave - I read that too. Turns out the author is a good friend of a guy I work with. Terrifying place to be in the dead of night.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2007 : 08:32:22

No need for the VHF at a race mark--yelling generally suffices...

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2007 : 16:56:02

"...he just doesn't feel the risks to his boat are not worth the "type" of sailing that is going on in our fleet. That is too bad."

If the "type of sailing" involved is RACING, it pays to be aware of the RRS (Racing Rules of Sailing). B is definitely somewhat culpable in this (14), but based on what's been stated so far A lost his rights and then tried a rather risky manuver to get back to the mark - w/o checking for potential conflict around first. ANY time you're on the course you gotta know what's going on around you and where you fall in the RoW dept.

It happens, and that's how you learn. Sometimes the lesson is pricey (about $1250 + A's own damage, and some pride, in this case). Maybe the trick for A's capt would be to spend some time in the races as crew, while he learns more about the racing environment. I originally quit racing on my local lake due conditions I felt were too agressive. Spent some time crewing and found that in a fairly short order I had a much better handle on things, and got back into racing my own boat.

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/26/2007 : 19:26:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SailCO26
 "...he just doesn't feel the risks to his boat are not worth the "type" of sailing that is going on in our fleet. That is too bad."

If the "type of sailing" involved is RACING, it pays to be aware of the RRS (Racing Rules of Sailing). B is definitely somewhat culpable in this (14), but based on what's been stated so far A lost his rights and then tried a rather risky manuver to get back to the mark - w/o checking for potential conflict around first. ANY time you're on the course you gotta know what's going on around you and where you fall in the RoW dept.

It happens, and that's how you learn. Sometimes the lesson is pricey (about $1250 + A's own damage, and some pride, in this case). Maybe the trick for A's capt would be to spend some time in the races as crew, while he learns more about the racing environment. I originally quit racing on my local lake due conditions I felt were too agressive. Spent some time crewing and found that in a fairly short order I had a much better handle on things, and got back into racing my own boat.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I agree with spending time on another boat. That is how I started. I crewed for an entire season with one of the top captains in our fleet. I learned a lot. Would the knowledge I learned have caused me to avoid the situation that happened to Alpha? You bet. Your idea is a sound one and all who race should take advantage of it. Most fleets are always looking for crew on race day.

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