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What would you do?

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/12/2007 : 13:10:02

I was out on the bay yesterday (Sandusky, not SF) moving along at about 3.5 knots. I was being very careful to avoid the sand bar at the mouth of the bay. It set off my depth gauge alarm last week. So, I was in plenty of water when I saw a MacGregor 26 heading for the thin stuff but still well short of the marker bouys. I didn't think much of it since I figured he would tack or lift a centerboard/rudders/motor and be OK. Well, that was right before he stopped cold.

As we went by, we could hear the 50 HP running and I assumed he was trying to back off. But, he still had his sails up and was on a beam reach. The sails were full. So, in effect, he was trying to motor back against his sails and having a hard time of it. I didn't see the rudders come up either. Can't say about the CB. Shouldn't he have dropped his sails?

Also, what should I have done? I obviously couldn't get in close to offer any assistance. The crew appeared safe and were wearing PFD's. I thought about hailing him on the radio but figured he didn't need another distraction. So, I sailed on figuring that if he needed help, he would ask. This was in a well traveled area but without excess traffic (Monday evening) and well out of the channel (obviously). So, powerboaters were around, etc. He and his crew were not in peril. He eventually got free and his boat was seen a few slips down from mine after we returned.

What should I have done? What would you do?

John Russell
1999 C250 SR/WK #410
Bay Village, Ohio
Sailing Lake Erie
Don't Postpone Joy!

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2007 : 14:03:42

It some what reminds me of my first attempt at sailing my C-25. I ran aground coming into the narrow channel (but wide river) to marina. I was on a beam reach and suddenly was stuck in the mud. I was completely new to sailing, but my first thought was to lower my main sail (my headsail tore up just before this!). The keel was stuck and the wind was heeling us over. My second thought was to tell my brother to raise the swing keel as I tried to start my outboard. Well, my brother raised the keel within a few seconds and my engine was not starting. In the mean time, since the keel was up, the wind just blew us into shallower waters; I remember it was less than 3’! Maybe it didn’t take quite 5 minutes, but it sure felt like it as it took so long to finally get my outboard to start. I was about to give up with the engine. Fortunately I was able to slowly pull us back into deeper water and safely docked my boat perfectly for the first time. The next time I left the keel down until I had the engine started. Yes, I ran aground again last year, the bay and rivers are shallow and deceiving in areas but luckily it is just mud.

As for what to do if you see someone in that situation? I’m not exactly sure either. If they look safe, and in my situation it was just mud, not rocks, then I think what you did was fine. Their big 50 hp outboard probably was helpful.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2007 : 16:58:42

Broadsides to the waterline with everything you've got so it sinks when the tide comes in. Rescue the crew, show 'em your boat on the way back in. When you're back to shore, point 'em to the Swap Meet page on this site as a good place to spend the insurance money (right after Common Sense 101 class down at the local free university). JK.

We have a sand bar that sticks out near our local marina, well marked with "Shallow Water" bouys. Never ceases to amaze me how many get stuck on that every weekend. Last Sun was a Mac 26x, and they were trying to power OVER it. They got a tow (powerboat), who was also trying to pull them OVER the bar. The water at that point was less than knee deep, and winds were 0G1/2. They finally jumped in and pushed her off (Duuuh!), but then proceeded to try to cross AGAIN. This time the forward tow was successful. Learning has NOT occurred.

Yeah, if you're stuck and trying to get back off in reverse, either drop sail or figure out how to use 'em in your favor (not likely going backwards, tho that depends on the wind dir). With a fin keel, over-trimming the sails may help lift the keel out - just be careful that you have an out once free, and dont get stuck AGAIN 10' further. Even worse, heeled toward the incoming tide. Roops.

As for the Mac26, in a well-traveled area I'd keep an eye on them and an ear on the radio. In a less populous area, come w/in hail and see if they need a hand. Ask if they have a VHF before leaving.

My $0.02

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2007 : 17:35:02

My thinking is that if someone is in trouble (i.e. they or their boat is in actual danger) and I can assist them someway without endangering myself or my boat (excessively) then I must offer assistance. A running aground experience probably doesn't qualify and I would probably continue on my way - especially since I really can't help much. Now if it was near sunset I think I would hail them to see if they needed me to call vessel assist for them. Is that too mercenary?

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2007 : 18:14:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SailCO26
 Broadsides to the waterline with everything you've got so it sinks when the tide comes in. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

In the Sandusky Bay you will be there for about 10,000 years before the tide comes in and that is just what scientist estimate.

John - I would have flipped the vhf on to 16 hailed him that you were monitoring the channel respond if you need assistance. In my opinion he isn't in distress until he hails you, puts up a visual distress signal, rings the bell or fires the flare. Heck even waves his arms at you.

You cannot be expected to put your boat in harms way without any indication that they were in need of assistance. Especially in less than 8 kts of breeze when they could have walked 15 feet from the boat and been in knee deep (but that is an aside.) For all you know the guy was trying to practice downwind trim and wasn't even stuck.(well actually you know better, but what else can you say he owns a mac.)

Edited by - on

Dave Otey
Navigator

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USA
112 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2007 : 18:48:45

I suppose leaving the main up might have some benefit to aid in healing the boat to help relieve the keel from the mud.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3440 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2007 : 19:47:04

My thought is that if I was fairly close to him and he needed help, he would ask for it. I ran into something similar with another boater right outside my marina. It was a motorboat that looked like he could not get his motor started. In this case, he was very close to the marina and I did not offer to help. My thought is he would have yelled over to me or for that matter, he was within shouting distance of the marina as well.

The one time I was grounded in the Potomac River (before I replaced my non-working depthfinder with a fishfinder), I called up the yacht club to check when was the low tide since it seemed like I may be at it. Turns out I was grounded just around the time of low tide - What luck ! I measured the depth with my telecopic hook-pole and ...it seemed I pile drived it into about 6" of something/mud. I waited it out for about 2 hours continuing to monitor the draft. Meanwhile...there was this annoying guy in a daysailor that kept circling around me every so often ...probably just rubbing it in that I was stuck. It wasn't like he could help anyway since he had no motor but definitely had a shallow draft to his boat.

Since that experience running aground, I have seen others get stuck in same place. They just waited it out. It's not what I would call an emergency type situation and....there was NO WAY I was going to radio the TowBoat to assist me which many could also do if caught in a similar situation.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2007 : 21:17:15

I tend to offer help to anyone in trouble on the water as long as I can do it safely. The ocean is a lot bigger than any of us and I think we need to stick together out there. If a life was lost because I didn't take some action that I could have, I really don't know how I would deal with it.

As a result of my attitude, I've towed becalmed daysailers, exhausted kayakers, ferried tired swimmers to shore, drug assorted dead powerboats back to the marina, and once took a 14' skiff into the surf to pull a capsized fisherman out of the breakers. (I was lots younger and braver than I am now.)

I think those Mac motorsailors draw something like 18" with the centerboard and rudders kicked up.

In this situation, I probably would have kept an eye on the boat from a distance, the gone back and hailed him if he hadn't figured it out how to lower the sail and raise the hangy-down stuff after an appropriate time. Even if the boat was 'safely' aground, I'd be a bit worried that an inexperienced operator might panic and do something stupid. (like try to swim to shore etc.)

Edited by - on

saribella
Captain

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USA
286 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2007 : 22:02:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

What should I have done? What would you do?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Simply nothing..............it is called natural selection.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2007 : 22:24:06

IF he had a VHF, and IF he was monitoring 16, he could have made the same call you're thinking you might have made for him. But on a Mac, his radio was probably Sirius, monitoring Howard Stern.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2007 : 23:01:02

I'd attempt to make contact via VHF, or eye contact, or yell at them and ask if they needed assistance.
If they said yes, my assistance would be to contact the marina or CG or Tow company, or possibly to secure my boat, then go over to his boat in my tender.

Its my understanding that a capable vessel comes to the aid of a vessel in distress.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2007 : 08:44:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What would you do?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Get out the video camera.

Seriously, the consensus seems to be to evaluate how much trouble he was in, and since it seems that he was safely having a "learning experience" I'd leave him to it.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">a vessel in distress<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I believe a soft grounding with no imminent danger to crew or vessel does not qualify as such.

You can float by and see if he signals, I have done so in the past and successfully rendered assistance.......but be forewarned, that rendering assistance to a nincompoop can damage your boat, especially if he has a loaded 50HP on the stern. And don't be surprised if he sues you afterwards. I have little patience for people that get themselves into trouble because of ignorance or incompetence. That's how TowBoatUS makes their money, and we shouldn't take their business, so they'll be there if WE do something stupid.....

Now, if they're in the water, yes then you pluck them out no matter what it takes.

Edited by - Oscar on 06/13/2007 08:59:20

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2007 : 09:48:40

To be fair, the marker bouys that denoted the thin water were beyond his location. I imagine he has a depth gauge but didn't recognize (or react correctly to) the shallow warning alarm. And, I would not have considered them "in distress", just stuck. I'm sure he saw me and I was close enough that he could have easily gotten my attention without a radio. I'm sure I would have done whatever was necessary if I saw somebody in the water or thought them in peril.

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2007 : 21:40:20

MacGregor?! Laugh as I sailed by.

That's what charts and depth sounders are for.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2007 : 21:50:52

Not such a nice ending.
I took this video of a McGregor that had pulled up to the beach at Fort Pickens at Pensacola during the B.E.E.R. cruise this week. They (and a bunch of other boats) pulled onto the beach, we anchored off and dinked ashore.

The video shows them trying to get the boat back off the beach.

[url="http://ravenms.razorstream.com:80/mediaserver/stream/riXhFuQt872RCjwdeJ%2F8Aw%3D%3D.wmv"]Click to view video[/url]

If you ever find yourself on the beach, make sure your keel is fully up!!!!!!

Paul

Edited by - on

roberoo
Navigator

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USA
182 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2007 : 22:43:53

Paul that video was deja vu. I had a Mac 26d before my catalina. I picked it up in Daytona Beach and did the "Trials" in the halifax river. I was grounded a half dozen times till I got smart (Dump the ballast and raise the dagger board).

Eventually she slipped off the bunks of the trailer and cracked the hull (Insurance very good to me) Bought my Catalina.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2007 : 07:44:29

A tide table might have helped, too... (Don't beach your boat at dead-high.)

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2007 : 08:42:14

Priceless, pivoting on your swing keel till it snaps off instead of raising it.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2007 : 09:05:20

Looks like they broke the rudder blade off... The centerboard has to be up--I recall it draws something like 5' on the M-26. They'll be motoring home...

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2007 : 10:57:11

That's what I thought at first, but I'm pretty sure I heard Paul asking them if it was a dagger board and they said keel. Of course, they may not know the difference between the rudder & the keel.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2007 : 11:57:21

Yup, the kickup rudder is sticking out from the transom... They must have lost a piece off the bottom of the centerboard. It's hard to figure how, since the board had to be pretty well up in the trunk in water that shallow. On Macs I've seen, the board can go flush to the bottom. I'm thinking that one had previously been damaged.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2007 : 12:34:10

David, definitely their keel! The onwer loaned our snokeling mask and dove under the boat. The rudders are visible. Apparently his decision was to order a new one prior to departing the marina.

The beach had a severe slope and dropped to 6' within about 10 foot of the shoreline, we were anchored, but had 19' under us and you can see how close we were to the shore.

My guess is that the keel was straight down when they tied up their stern to the beach. If you watch the video, you can make out one of the women on board aksing 'Is that black thing in the water from out boat?' had she not noticed it, then the boat would most likely have pulled away from the beach none the wider until they started to crab badly on a reach. The fin is for lateral resistance, the water ballast provides stability.

Paul

Edited by - on

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