Association Forum - More Newbie Questions

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

More Newbie Questions - Survey & Price

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

brrit
1st Mate

Member Avatar

80 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/07/2007 : 07:10:46

While trying put an offer on a Catalina 25, another Catalina 25 can available in even better condition. It has all the feature we are looking for and more including 15 HP electric start engine, self tailing winches, roller furling, nice covers, new cushions, electronics including wind speed/direction, depth, and knots. The boat is the cleanest boat I've looked at, but there's a catch. The owner wants $13.5K for it. This seems high to me, but it is in the best condition I've seen. Is it worth the extra cost? I do like having a new boat ready to sail (and more) rather than a project.

As a footnote, the seller is a Cat 22 racer in the area/nationally named Barney. (Forgetting his last name at the moment)

Also, what about a survey? I'm stretched with the price of the boat and it looks clean as a whistle. I've had people say not to spend the money on a survey with this size boat and I've heard survey any boat you buy. I'd love to hear any one's thoughts...

Bryan Ritchie
"Serenity Now"
1989 C-25 TR/FK #5829
Dallas, Texas
www.athomewithdad.net

Edited by - on

bmelchionda
1st Mate

Members Avatar

63 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 07:29:17

brrit:
Are the 2 boats listed on the web? Can you provide the links to the url where the boats are being listed? That way, we can review the specs of each and give you better guidance. 13.5k sounds like a lot for an older boat, but maybe you are looking at a newer one. I laid out the extra money and had a surveyor thoroughly inspect the boat. However, I've always been know to lean on the safe side and not take too many risks.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 07:31:01

Personally I think the price is way to high. A survey would give you the actual price of the boat and possibly give you wiggle room in the negotiations.

I don't think a survey is warranted until the cost is less than 10 percent of the boat. Usually until that point you can pretty much see what you are getting. Being a C-22 owner - you aren't exactly green either so visually you'll be able to determine a bunch.

If you can't swing the survey, you might consider purchasing a moisture meter, reading up on Don Casey's surveying book, the how to survey a C-25 here in our tech tips and try and give it a once over yourself. You could literally read up on anything you want by searching the forum.

13 k is alot of money for one of these. There are very, very very solid 30 footers with diesel inboards for that price.

And 15 horses is almost a full team too many for these stagecoaches.

Edited by - on

brrit
1st Mate

Members Avatar

80 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 07:31:47

Sorry. The age probably would help. The boat selling for $13.5K is a 1988. They aren't on the web that I'm aware of.

Edited by - on

bmelchionda
1st Mate

Members Avatar

63 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 07:39:28

Just to give you an example: I have an 86 in good condition, with self tailing winches, roller furling, main cover, NOT new cushions but clean and serve the purpose, electronics including depth and knots. I also have Edson pedestal wheel steering and a diesel inboard. I paid around 6k in the northeast. Check out Yachtworld.com and compare the prices. You never know, you may find even a better boat/deal.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 07:43:53

[url="http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/cache/searchResults.jsp?cit=true&ybw=&slim=quick&sm=3&is=&type=&man=Catalina&luom=126&fromLength=25&toLength=25&fromYear=1987&toYear=1989¤cyid=100&fromPrice=&toPrice=&cint="]clicky[/url]

Here are some comparables -

Edited by - Champipple on 06/08/2007 19:05:24

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 08:32:33

Bryan... I'm not sure where Duane got that you were a C-22 owner, but most C-25s do fit his 10% criterion for a survey. (And actually, the older the boat, the more valuable a survey can be.) Three factors in favor...

1. Many insurance companies require one for a boat over xx years old. You might as well get the benefits of point #2 if you have to pay for one anyway.

2. If the survey is "clean", you'll feel that much better about whatever you end up paying; if it's not, you'll have some valuable bargaining points (or know to walk away).

3. You'll learn a lot. Bring a clipboard and ask lots of questions. You'll end up with a prioritized list of projects, even if none of them are necessary to go sailing right away. No matter how good she looks, a 19-year-old boat has some things to attend to.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 09:17:58

If the floor is flat, (late 88) then it could be worth it. If the floor is not flat then they are nuts.
Buy Frank Gloss' boat.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 06/07/2007 09:19:26

dblitz
Navigator

Members Avatar

240 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 09:34:15

The whole point of our c-25's (to me) is that they are a fair amount of boat for not too much money. No matter what you buy, you're going to have to put more money into it because there are things that you will want to be different, the way you like them. An 88 is still almost 20 years old. Don't let the looks fool you, this isn't a 66 Mustang conv that you can lovingly keep out of harm's way in your garage, it's a boat that will be at the mercy of everyone and everything, especially if you're going to keep it on a mooring. Besides why pay top dollar??

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 09:47:13

Okay so the seller is a C-22 owner.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 09:54:50

Another difference between the '66 Mustang convertible and a 20-25 year old boat is, the Mustang will continue to increase in value as it ages whereas an old boat will continue to spiral down in value.

This works for me since I'm somewhat of a bottom feeder when it comes to buying boats. I can hardly wait until the price of a Valiant 40 drops below 10K!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 10:09:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 I can hardly wait until the price of a Valiant 40 drops below 10K!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I think there might be one around here for that or less... on the bottom off Point Judith.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Buy Frank Gloss's boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Word!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/07/2007 10:12:11

haley
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
59 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 10:27:50

Two points in favor of a survey, both mentioned above:

1) It may be required for insurance purposes, and insurance would be required if you are financing (but is always good anyway). And with insurance think liability as well as coverage - sure an '83 C25 may not be worth much but when you plow it into the stern of the cruiser in the next slip...

2) Of course you will be spending more money on your "new" purchase. I really would like a bimini if/when I purchase a sailboat. But if the surveyor notices the rudder is ready to go I'd probably throw the money there first.

From my surveyor I am looking for 3 things: satisfy insurance requirements, spot a lemon before purchasing, help decide where the money goes first.

John

Edited by - on

brrit
1st Mate

Members Avatar

80 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 10:35:21

Interesting. Who is Frank Gloss and where can I find his boat?

Lots of great advice folks. Keep it coming.

Edited by - on

Daren
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
81 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 11:15:03

Get a survey! At least you will know where the problem areas are and it will give you leg to stand on when negotiating the price with the seller. The surveyor will also show you everything on the boat and how it works. I would strongly urge you to accompany the surveyor when and if you elect to have a survey done.

Here is where you can find a reputable marine surveyor in your area:
http://www.marinesurvey.org
http://www.nams-cms.org/index.php

Good Luck.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3440 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 12:43:40

I joined this Forum after I bought my Catalina '89 tall rig. Perhaps I would have been swayed to get a survey from all the advice given here. As it turned out, I have had my boat for 1 1/2 years and it has been fine - very good shape to begin with and now upgraded with a few of my hobby projects. My boat cost $9750 and at the time, I knew the motor was a bit finicky and potentially would be buying a new one...which I eventually did. Given the one you are looking at seems in excellent condition, has significant electronic upgrades, etc it would seem it is still a bit high in cost. In this case, a survey has value in justifying the somewhat higher cost. Without the survey, you take a chance on some things that perhaps the average sailor would not have spotted and then having paid more initially for it, you are then that much in the hole for the maintenance it may require.

It is true that once an owner, you will find plenty of things to upgrade or put money towards but I view these more as part of the hobby/sport as opposed to correcting things that were not initially known.

Edited by - on

Jmurfy
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
176 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 18:59:53

Two years ago I paid $7000.00 for my 85 fin standard rig with a roller furling, good cushions and a very nice interior with ok sails. I would not pay $13k even if it had a trailer which is the only thing I miss having. If I was starting now I would look to pay about $6500.00 for a nice boat, get a survey and then make all the improvements to customize the way I've already done. ie, new halyards, a better anchor, a Garmin Chartplotter (best thing I've done), a better motor mount, etc..

Edited by - on

existentialsailor
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1180 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 19:28:22

$13.5K, don't think so. I just turned down a Pearson 33 for that price.
It's a buyers market.

Edited by - existentialsailor on 06/07/2007 19:33:59

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 20:48:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by brrit
 Who is Frank Gloss and where can I find his boat?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm surprised he hasn't responded... Go to the General Forum or Admiralty Forum and look for a thread started by "Gloss" about buying an Ericson 32. Frank has been around here a long time, and I'm sure his '89 tall rig wing keel is a specimin, although it probably won't be for sale until he's made his move on the Ericson (or something else). He's in Tennessee.

FRANK???

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/07/2007 20:50:17

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1608 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2007 : 22:20:25

Original asking price of the C25 I bought was $11,950 ... I bought it for $6250.00

If you really want that boat, give him a low-ball offer. He can only decline it and possibly counter with his real bottom line price.

Contact some insurance companies to see if they will insure a C25 without a survey. methinks it unlikely.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2007 : 07:18:35

Virtually no boats in Kansas have been surveyed, (there are no surveyors), all are insured. I use State Farm.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2007 : 08:11:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 Virtually no boats in Kansas have been surveyed, (there are no surveyors), all are insured. I use State Farm.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Personally, I don't know of anyone in my circle of sailors who've used the services of a surveyor, including me, but they are mostly in the under 30ft range. My boat is insured through Allstate and everything was done mostly over the phone with no hint of wanting a survey.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2007 : 08:15:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 Virtually no boats in Kansas have been surveyed, (there are no surveyors), all are insured.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Maybe the insurers figure boats on small lakes aren't stressed much, and if they do sink, everyone can walk ashore.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2007 : 09:55:28

We never had a survey for the Wasp - never needed one. Our marine insurance replacement value policy required a survey. Same policy, bigger boat. Also depends on the insured value. If it costs more than x they want to know that you are insuring it for what it is worth and you have mitigated much of the risk.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1608 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2007 : 17:15:33

Clarification!

My insurance agent told me that to insure for replacement, you need a survey.
To insure for a pre-specified dollar amount, you do not need a survey.
She also told me that a surveyed boat was less expensive, especially in the first year of coverage.
My 1981 C25 with OB and tender, cost me $180 per year. I paid $260 for the first year.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1608 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2007 : 17:21:19

And another thing. When I was a newbie, getting a survey was an absolute must. I simply did not know enough to ask the right questions or where to look for potential problems.
If I were to buy another C25, I would forgo the survey ONLY if I could take it for a test sail, and then haul it out and inspect the bottom.

If I were to buy a boat other than a C25/250 or C22, I would want a survey or qualified second opinion.

Good luck. Sounds like a nice boat.
Glad I bought mine, honeymoon is still on. (we're still in love)

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.