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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

What Rudder do I have

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Second Wind53
1st Mate

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Canada
45 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/03/2007 : 00:11:06

Measured our rudder today 64 inches top to bottom with max 14 inches cord. Of that 34in are in the water.
I'm just wondering what rudder we have and how it would compare to the beaching rudder.

Were out today in 8 knots of wind and the boat was fairly good but definetly there was a fair amount of weather helm.

Peter

95 250WB #90
Vancouver, BC

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 08:00:05

Peter, I think you have the 1st of three iterations of rudder, which Catalina offered a replacement of a 2nd for the shipping cost. Of course, we are now on the 3rd.

The rudder you have has inadequate control for the characteristics of the 250 and can't keep the boat from rounding up during puffs.

It is inadequate for any aggressive sailing venues.

As far as I know, both it and the 1st generation beaching rudder were both inadequate and the beaching rudder likely experiencing more helm than your blade do to the poor hold down design allowing the beaching to rake aft.

If more control is desired to avoid the round ups... the 3rd would help some. For maximum control, get the 3rd long that is designed for the wing keel. The drawback of the 3rd long for the water ballast is it cannot be shipped on the transom during launch and retrieve.

If a beaching rudder is desired because of sailing style or because a full control rudder is desired that will launch and retrieve while shipped... the IDA rudder is the only other option.

The Catalina 3rd short for the water ballast is somewhere control wise between your 1st and the 2nd, which had a lot of control but suffered torque issues because of no balance.

The 3rd short will however have considerably better slow speed control than your 1st, which had very inadequate slow speed control during docking and basically poor control all the way around. The 3rd short's only drawback is that it is inadequate control wise for aggressive sailing venues.

The best rudder so far for the water ballast is the 2nd generation beaching after some rudder head mods are made.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 06/03/2007 08:25:51

JohnMD
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 10:21:24

Wow, it sounds like every 250 made has a different rudder. My boat is WB hull number 2. I was told the rudder was replaced with the third gen. (PO). Now I wonder. My rudder is 59 inches tall, 17 inch max cord, and only about 2 feet of it is actually in the water.

Anybody know what generation rudder that is? No wonder I have such control problems.

I check with a local boat repair place and was told it is cheaper to buy a new rudder than to add a few inches of length of mine.

I guess I'll wait until IDA has a sale.

Edited by - on

Second Wind53
1st Mate

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Canada
45 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 11:46:45

Slow speed isn't too bad with this rudder but the amount of helm pressure is a lot in my opinion.
Getting out of our slip backwards is another story. Now I am pulling the boat out into the main waterway by hand and pushing off.
Everytime we tried backing out under power we need to push off of boats.
I know from the forum that I need to make our nissan 8hp turn to help that. Unfortunately it has no handle and works through a remote throttle shift setup which is nice for control but the brackets that hold the cables restrict the engine turning.

Does anybody have the IDA beaching rudder and will it be better than what we have now?

Peter

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 12:01:06

17" wide is the telling fact that you indeed have the 3rd... and likely the 3rd short if having control issues.

On the soap box for a moment... Catalina is boxed by the "depends upon how the boat is used" issue. If they supply the longer rudder with the water ballast, they will suffer complaints and likely warranty issues following attempts to launch or retrieve with the rudder attached. It is very easy for a new or older owner to forget to remove the rudder and rip it from the transom when hauling out. The shorter rudder while lacking control will provide reasonable control for docile sailing venues, which Catalina likely would argue is the norm for the 250.

Gerry Graham pointed out clearly to both Oscar and me... that our sailing venues were not typical to the C250 and argued that the 3rd short provided adequate control for most owners. IMHO, I think that is somewhat wishful thinking on his part as most of us at some point require more demanding requirements of control from the rudder.

The result of course is that many have been driven to an after market IDA rudder that hasn't itself proven to be the cat's meow.

The rudder with the most control that allowed it to be affixed during launch and retrieve was the 2nd generation beaching but that rudder suffered torque issues that made it unsuitable with wheel steering and even for a tiller required a strong arm.

What Gerry didn't want to hear was that 2nd beaching rudder head could be modified to work very well because at the time he'd made the decision to abandon the beaching rudder and I suspect had made an agreement with Edson to do so.

What might have happened is that Edson may have pulled their wheel option from the 250 because of too many warranty issues. We don't know for sure except that the wheel was removed from the option list until after Edson redesigned to pull/pull cables and Catalina dropped the beaching rudder.

So, yes there have been a great many rudders and the water ballast model still doesn't have a good Catalina offering unless they can be talked into delivering the 2nd generation beaching and then the mods are done to it.

As to the IDA rudder, it seems mixed signals remain. They offer a beaching design but the control and durability have seen a few questions.

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 12:05:03

Peter, I have a new IDA kickup rudder on my C250WB S/N 89. I removed the first generation rudder after six years of use. The new IDA rudder is like having power stearing. Contrary to popular belief you have to raise that beaching rudder to launch and retrieve. With the rudder down and boat on the trailer level there is about two inches clearance between the ground and the rudder bottom. I have not been in any winds over about 12-15 knots so I can't comment on rounding up etc. I can tell you the boat holds course going to weather though. I can lock the tiller with a bungee cord and go below to get drink etc with no course change. The first generation would have had me going off 90 degrees. This IDA rudder was the last in this series, the new model has a gas cylinder to assist raising and lowering the rudder. I could have had one of the new rudders but elected the last verzion with a 10 percent discount. When you order with a new tiller it is assemble and install on boat. took 10 minutes
for all that. Hope this helps.

Edited by - on

JohnMD
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 12:13:00

Arlyn, could you please be more specific about what the 'control and durability' issues are with the IDA rudder. Thanks for verifying which rudder I have on the boat.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 12:26:56

John, my comments on the IDA are based solely on comments by others about it. I've never seen or experienced the IDA rudder.

There have been a few comments about the control... one that I recall is that a "longer special order version is needed for greater control".

There was a recent account of a failure.

I realize that these accounts must be measured and the difficulty of doing that... so I'm trying to be careful and using the term yet unproved. For example, Bear's account above leaves the IDA an unknown quantity in more demanding sailing conditions and even perhaps suggest the rudder may be a bit short to provide control that the 250 needs in aggressive conditions and to manage a pilot, this based upon my belief that a longer rudder than will clear the ground is needed.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 06/03/2007 13:14:25

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2007 : 15:40:27

Peter,
I replaced my third generation rudder with the IDA kick-up and couldn't be happier. The main reason I did it was the narrow water at the head of the bay where my slip is but I have noticed a great deal less weather helm since putting her on. I do sail in the ocean a bit and have heard some caveats regarding the strength of the rudder. Only once have I heard of a major problem (the rudder snapping) and if pressed for a guess as to the reason I would say the owner may have sailed for some time with the rudder not fully extended which puts enormous stress not only on the rudder but the pintles and gudgeons. One bit of advice I would give if you go the IDA route is to order it with their tiller set-up. Using your own tiller requires some fabricating to install a good system for locking the rudder into position (up/down). IMHO, overall the performance as well as the additional accessability the rudder has provided has made it a worthwhile investment.
Willy

Edited by - on

essen48183
Navigator

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USA
143 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2009 : 21:54:13

I was just on the phone with IDA the other day. I thought I had the first gen rudder and was going to try the IDA rudder. Pictures of it showed it not to be very balanced. I appreciate a light helm and modified my last boat to achieve this. In fact that is, in essence, Arlyn's mod for the C250. Grinding the aluminum away on the stock rudder puts some of the rudder ahead of the pivot point.

Anyway, IDA said, "no problem... we can add all the rudder you want to the front of it and still make it the same NACA 0012 high lift airfoil." I have since measured and have the second gen, so I'm going to give my rudder a try before I switch.

I would advise you to not go to the IDA website and click "add to cart" Call them up and ask the salesperson if you can talk to the owner or a fabricator. They will make you one for your style of sailing. The cost was only another $50 for my request. He also said that the "for tiller only" is just because they didn't make the piece that goes through the transom to hook to the cables for sheel steering. They can, just haven't had the interest.

The caveat is that the IDA fabricator cautioned against building too much into the forward portion of the rudder to compensate for an unbalanced rig, keel, or sails. I think that is an important point.

Again, I didn't order it... I will be doing the 2nd gen kick up (with Arlyn's mod)

Edited by - essen48183 on 02/12/2009 21:59:05

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