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New Owner 250 WB 2001

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barleyrooty
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64 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/09/2007 : 09:30:35

Hi All,

Thanks for the help so far. My 250WB arrives tomorrow! I'm sure I'm going to need lots of advice as I'm a newbie sailor. (Hobie catting for awhile but I think of this as a much bigger project!)

Couple of questions to start:

I'm aware of the whole "leaking coaming" issue - someone said there was a good way to make some covers that velcro on. Is there a post with some info on this?

The prior owner kept it on a lift. I need to keep it on a mooring (in a natural harbor) for the summer. He's now concerned that I should install an automatic bilge pump. I'm all for doing this but it's going to take me a few weeks to get that done - seemingly marina work is impossible to obtain this time of year. Am I taking a huge risk of it sinking over the next few weeks? Any ideas as to what I should check for leaks? The seller seemed particularly concerned about the water tank valve.

Thanks in advance,
Phil
(Lulu)

Lulu, 2001 C250 WB #540
Keyport, NJ

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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Response Posted - 05/09/2007 : 10:25:02

Phil, For my two cents worth I'd stick it on the buoy for a while and monitor things. Not everybody has these problems. I've had a
1995 WB for six years and never had a leak.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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Response Posted - 05/09/2007 : 14:29:26

Congrats on purchase first of all. Have you taken for a sea trial? Did you check for leaks in the bilge, galley, head or any other areas? Do those areas look dry or unusual. Does she smell musty?
Keep up posted. good luck.

Edited by - on

Oscar
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Response Posted - 05/09/2007 : 14:54:58

Not much that can leak, as in no thru-hulls below the waterline. Maybe a little seepage through coaming/cubby holes but that's it...would take weeks to get above the floor. Wouldn't worry about it.

If the cubby holes are leaking, the fix (per Catalina) is to pour a thin epoxy in there.....it follows the leak and clogs it up.

Edited by - Oscar on 05/09/2007 16:07:27

barleyrooty
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Response Posted - 05/09/2007 : 20:28:24

Yes I took it out for the afternoon, but I guess I didn't check for leaks. Newbie mistake #1 !

Dumb question, but how do I buy or make thin epoxy? Store only seems to have paste.

Doesn't the water tank count as a thru-hull?

Edited by - barleyrooty on 05/09/2007 20:32:59

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 05/10/2007 : 09:18:03

BR... yes... the water ballast valve definitely counts as a thru hull when the valve shaft is factored in. The valve shaft however is above the boot stripe and doesn't provide a leak scenario until either of two conditions apply<ul><li>the boat heels and water ballast can flow through a poorly sealed shaft into the bilge</li><li>the boat comes up on her dock lines on a non floating dock holding her from floating to her boot stripe</li></ul>
the first scenario is a pain because gear at the bottom of lockers can get wet but the second scenario has sunk at least one 250 in her slip when lake levels rose.

It is helpful to remember that the ballast valve on the bottom of the boat probably doesn't seal 100% due to surface irregularities and possibly bottom paint fouling. This is normally of no consequence but could become one if there were also a ballast tank leak within the boat. Ballast tank leaks however have been rare, with most actually resulting from some action such as too long a screw into the cabin sole.

Having said all this... I agree with others who suggest it is ok to moore the boat but to do some initial checking to insure the bilge stays dry. It should however go without saying that a moored boat requires regular checks.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 05/10/2007 : 10:39:47

Phil,
You can usually get some sort of epoxy resin & catalyst at the box stores (Lowes, Home Depot, etc.). If there's a marine store close, there are several choices. [url="http://www.westsystem.com/"]West System Epoxy[/url] is the one I use, but there are a number of others available. It sounds like [url="http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/7344/0/0/epoxy/All_2/mode%20matchallpartial/15/0"]StarBrite Penetrating Epoxy[/url] might work for finding your leaks, it's designed for jobs like that. I've had good success with other StarBrite products, but I've never used this one.

Congratulations on your new boat!

Edited by - on

willy
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Response Posted - 05/10/2007 : 17:03:44

Phil,
At the risk of stating the obvious I feel moved to remind you to make certain you bottom paint Lulu before you leave her in the water. If the previous owner kept her on a lift, he probably didn't need to.
Get ready for LOTS OF FUN!!!
Willy

Edited by - on

barleyrooty
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Response Posted - 05/13/2007 : 13:56:38

OK so she's floating!

You can now all yell at me because I was such a dope. This is how it went:

Forgot to close the tank valve before launch.
Got her in and was messing with the mast for about 30 minutes.
Then went below and realized I had about 3" of water in the bilge.
Figured out finally that I needed to close the valve.
Started manual pumping out - at first lots of water coming out, then none, only gurgling.
Bilge down to 2" but rear birth had about 1/2"
As I eventually figured out the pump hose had come off the T-fitting.
Bailed with a bait bucket for almost an hour. Got the water out of the birth and down to about 1.5" in the bilge.
Removed the battery, wriggled in to the hole, and reattached the hose.
Pumped some more - water coming out but still leaking into the battery compartment. Must be a leak in the hose somewhere.
Had to jury-rig a safety switch - either the yard or the trucker took it out.
Motored home about 4 miles and put it on the mooring.
Checked it again today - seems to be about the same amount of water in the bilge.
Why would the water get in from the tank? Is it leaking? Seemed to fill the bilge while I was just moored up next to the ramp.
How can I tell if the tank is full? Under power she was pretty stable, but seems to be riding pretty high - bottom corner of bow is just touching the water and the paint line is about 3" above water.
Not exactly having fun yet, but I feel like I'm getting "married"!
Thanks,
Phil

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 05/13/2007 : 19:53:36

There should be no place for water to enter the boat including the bilge with the boat just sitting there... something is amiss.

The boat has a leak somewhere and a leak is not typical to the c250, which usually enjoys a dry bilge with the only exception the water ballast version that has sometimes leaked around the valve shaft but this usually only when the boat is heeled under sail.

I suggest discharging the ballast by either loading on a trailer or using an air pump for an inflatable or similar to pump out the ballast. This can be done by inserting the pump tube into the vent line and opening the ballast valve and pumping air into the tank until the water is discharged and the ballast valve closed again.

After the ballast is discharged, dry out the bilge and monitor it for any further ingress. If the bilge stays dry for a day or so... open the ballast valve and recharge the ballast and monitor the bilge for water. If the bilge then gets wet, there is a leak from the ballast tank that must be found and repaired.

If it is determined that there is a ballast tank leak... then let us know for more help.

That the PO showed concern that you install an auto bilge pump may be telling. And... the comment that he kept the boat on a hydro lift is also interesting. Did you infact inspect the boat on the hydro lift? Did a surveyor inspect the boat? Are you positive the boat was on a hydro lift or could that possibly be a ploy to deny any knowledge of water ingress. Is there any sign of water on the teak panel to port of the companionway?

A leak either ballast tank or otherwise could incur expense that you may want to discuss with the seller or the surveyor if one was had. It is normal to expect that a survey would discover a leak and the surveyor might hold some responsibility. In some states, the seller also must disclose such problems and I'm not believing if there is any significant leak that the PO did not know about it.

Keep us informed of what you find. Ballast tank leaks are rare but have happened.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 05/13/2007 : 20:18:45

Here's how to test for a water ballast leak:

With the boat on the trailer, pop a food coloring tablet down the vent pipe in the anchor locker.
Then use a hose to get water in the tank via the vent pipe.
If you have a leak from the ballast tank, you'll see colored water in the bilge.
As soon as you see any colored water, stop filling and track the leak down.
Could be from the filler point under the vberth, could be from any of the edge joints that run from the bow backwards on each side of the tank, could be from the aft joint of the tank to the hull (not so easy to see), and finally could be from the top of the hump under the steps. The valve under the steps should have a valve gasket between the wing nut and the top of the hump (ours did not!).

Now, if you find a leaky ballast tank, then I don't know the next step, have been trying to figure that part out myself!

Don't worry about the coloring tablet causing a stain: a) if you have a leak, the stain will be your last worry, b)if no leaks, then no stains! except on the outside of the lower hull when you drain the ballast, but you can put in about a 10% bleach solution to eliminate the color, and wash down the outside as you drain the tank.

Paul

Edited by - britinusa on 07/30/2007 18:55:56

barleyrooty
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 05/14/2007 : 16:20:13

It was definitely kept on a lift at the bottom of his yard. guess if he never had it in the water for days at a time, then a leaking tank may not have been of too much concern to him.

I didn't have it surveyed - Newbie mistake #2.

I got it to a marina today to have it checked out and get them to step the mast. Basically I got done with trying to "do it myself". Also going to have them install an auto pump, repair the manual pump, fix the coaming compartments, and drill the "battery compartment - bilge" holes.

I'm going to pass on your suggestions to them. Thanks!

Edited by - on

barleyrooty
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 05/15/2007 : 11:42:23

One more thing I'm now remembering from my slightly traumatic receipt on Saturday -

While I was tied up to the side, an occasional large fishing party boat was coming by, this would result in the boat rocking accompanied by a pretty loud banging noise with each "rock". I was in pretty shallow water with the centerboard raised. Any ideas? Centerboard? Water in the tank?

Thanks,
Phil

Edited by - barleyrooty on 05/15/2007 11:43:29

barleyrooty
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Response Posted - 05/29/2007 : 12:57:52

OK So I got my marina guy to try the food coloring trick, and lo and behold there is colored water coming into the bilge. Nothing obvious under the v-berth or the "hump". What's the next step to finding the leak?

Thanks!
Phil
(Thinking of changing the name to "leaky lulu")

Edited by - barleyrooty on 05/29/2007 12:59:17

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 05/29/2007 : 13:29:33

Inspect the aft edge of the ballast tank by using a mirror and flashlight inserted into the bilge hatch. An alternate way is to use a was of toilet paper (unsoiled would be preferential)and pat the seam the full length. The slightest moisture will be evident on the tissue. If a leak is found there, it is a pretty easy fix... drain the tank and let things dry out completely for a few days and clean the leak spot well with acetone.

There are two ways to reseal the tank, I'd try the simpler first... a good brand of silicone adhesive. Don't however get carried away with the stuff. Hopefully the leak got spotted well so that only a slight bit of silicone is needed. The reason for not getting wild is if the silicone doesn't do it, then it will have to come back out and the spot will need glassed and silicone sticks tenaciously to resin and will need cleaned off with a rotary wire brush in a dremel tool or die grinder.

If the leak is not at any visible or reachable location in the V berth, side lockers, under the galley (the bottom can be removed), the valve locker, or the bilge... then the task is going to be harder.

If that is the case, I'd first go over every inch of cabin sole including the head to inspect for either screws that might be too long and penetrate the tank or holes that were drilled in the sole.

There was one report a few years ago about a hold down screw for a porta potty being too long. If some area is suspect, buy an inspection hatch and cut a hole that will fit the rim of the inspection plate being careful to only cut through the surface... the tank is not too far beyond in some locations.

I'm betting that there is no leak in the top of the tank in the cabin sole area unless there is evidence of a screw hole.

Edited by - on

willy
Captain

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Response Posted - 05/31/2007 : 11:17:49

Unsoiled? Eeewwww!

Edited by - on

barleyrooty
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 05/31/2007 : 11:46:31

Looks like the leak is indeed the aft edge of the tank. Marina guy is planning to cut an inspection port (or widen the bilge opening) so he can get in and thoroughly glass it over. He didn't like the idea of using silicone.

Edited by - barleyrooty on 05/31/2007 11:48:02

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2007 : 12:13:02

Speaking <i>not</i> as a 250 WB owner (present or past) and not knowing what's really leaking... I'm not keen on the silicone sealer solution. Patching a somewhat pressurized leak with a semi-adhesive sealer from the outside is likely to be only a temporary solution.

My concern would be, why is there a crack or leak in the first place? Unless something like a screw punctured the tank, I'd have to assume a stress fracture, which suggests it could be stressed again. In that case, I'd probably start by working unthickened epoxy into the crack--enough that it's probably seeping out the other side (inside the tank). Then I'd add some slightly-thickened epoxy until it no longer enters the crack. Finally, I'd epoxy some woven fiberglass over the crack to stabilize it.

Alternatively, I'd let a professional fiberglass guy fix it. I'm not sure what I'd do about the seller...

(Never mind--I apparently took too long typing this.

)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/31/2007 12:15:36

britinusa
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Response Posted - 06/01/2007 : 17:29:04

Any chance you can get a picture of the leaky area??????

Paul

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 09:51:31

In defense of my silicone solution... I'll argue my case. I've done several fiberglass repairs on the boats I've owned and a fiberglass repair has some of the similarities of a cold joint... the joint doesn't have full structure integrity of native material.

If this is combined with stress, the cold joint can fail again unless the cause was simply too thin of a structure and the repair beefs the structure.

Part of my answer about using silicone adhesive comes also from my model airplane experience. There, silicone adhesive is the adhesive of choice when fitting a servo mount, bulkhead or firewall to a fiberglass framework. This is not because we are unequipped or inexperienced with epoxy or combining it with glass cloth. We use epoxy extensively as a glue and in combination with glass cloth for joining wing halves etc. but cold joining epoxy does not have the adhesive qualities of a good silicone adhesive or the vibration or stress forgiveness of silicone. Where a cold epoxy resin joint will suffer to stress and turn loose, silicone will hang in there.

The real question is does the silicone have the strength itself for the task and when considering that the ballast tank will never have more than a few pounds of pressure, silicone can handle that with ease, has a stronger bond to native glass, and provides forgiving flex.

I'm not suggesting silicone for any structural needs but for a fiberglass pinhole, it is a much faster, cheaper and probably better repair method than epoxy resin.

Keep in mind also, that the tank is fiberglass having no gel coat sealer surface layer so Catalina uses a white slurry wash coat (my term-I don't know what Catalina or a professional calls it) of some makeup on the tank to likely seal any pinholes and that the wash coat could have been thin or gave way do to flexing or adhesive breakdown.

I wouldn't rule out however that there is some flex there or it could be a fatigue point of resonance from the outboard vibration... who knows?

My main point in the argument is that given a single point small leak such as a fiberglass pinhole... I stick with silicone as a good choice and argue that it has adhesive and strength qualities that equal or exceed the wash coat or perhaps a spot repair with expoxy resin and cloth.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/03/2007 : 11:58:43

Perhaps I'm thinking of a different silicone sealer--I've seen GE and 3M silicones that adhered very well to some things and practically not at all to others--maybe because of surface preparation. And I'd agree with Arlyn's suggestion if the sealer could be applied inside the tank, rather than on the outside (although silicones are not recommended below the waterline). I'm suspicious that a few pounds of pressure could be magnified by some slams of the hull into waves--but then again those same events could stress a fiberglass/epoxy patch. With all due respect, I'd go with the pro.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/04/2007 : 13:04:14

One more thought about the tank leak... You don't supposed the PO left some water in the tank over the winter and freezing caused the damage...

Edited by - on

barleyrooty
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Response Posted - 06/08/2007 : 21:25:57

So I got to see the boat again today - it's not exactly convenient since I get to keep it 80 miles from my home (long story). Took a look in the bilge. Apparently the tank is held to the hull by a "tab" of fibreglass. The connection from the tab to the hull looks pretty beat up - deep cracks along about 1/2 the length on the starboard side, and shallower cracks on the port side. I took some pics which I'll upload when I get home on Sunday.

What's puzzling me is whether or not these cracks are the problem or not. Clearly they're not good, but is this area the tank itself, or just a tab that supports the tank? If I get a pro fibreglasser to fix them, will that fix the leak, or is it likely to be "behind" the tab?

I'm thinking of trying to spend some happy time with toilet paper over the weekend!

Thanks again,
Phil

Edited by - barleyrooty on 06/08/2007 21:28:10

barleyrooty
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Response Posted - 06/11/2007 : 10:19:42

Here are the photos of the crack on the back of the tank or tab or whatever we've decided this is (taken through bilge hatch):

Port side is mostly OK:

Crack starts just port of centerline:

Close up:

Continues starboard as far as I can see across to the side:

Close ups:

There's also a slight crack in the port locker near the hull number tag:

Should I be worried about this too?

The boat is now on land with the bow slightly down. I filled the tank with a hose through the plughole in the anchor locker. After it had been filling for around 5 minutes, water started to leak through the crack fairly rapidly (it was spreading across about 1/2 the width of the boat in a few seconds).

I figure it's leaking out the aft end of the tank, and that's why (with the boat tipped forward) it took a few minutes to start to show the leak.

My most important question at this point is: is this the tank (so fixing the crack will solve the problem) or is it a "tab" that holds the tank (in which case the tank-crack may be behind this "wall")

This is all pretty upsetting how badly I apparently got ripped off. Can't say how much I appreciate you all being there for me.

Thanks,

Phil

Edited by - barleyrooty on 06/11/2007 10:26:18

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2007 : 11:41:57

How long is the hull warranty on a C-250? I'd call this a hull problem.

Edited by - on

barleyrooty
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Response Posted - 06/11/2007 : 13:07:23

Looks like it's a 5 year warranty. Naturally enough, it's a six year old boat. :-(

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