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Can a C-25 swing-keel capsize?

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Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/10/2002 : 09:23:13

Last night, I was racing my Catalina 25 swing-keel when the wind kicked up from about 5 knots to about 25 knots, in advance of a thunderstorm.

Generally speaking, sailboats with keels do not capsize. I have been on lots of boats where we put the rail so far in the water that the cockpit filled with water, but the boat did not capsize.

But I'm worried about my swing keel boat. The C-25 has lots of freeboard and is relatively narrow, so when you put the rail in the water, the boat is already heeling alarmingly. I can imagine a scenario when you put the boat over on its side, the keel slaps back up into the trunk, and over she goes. Should I worry about that? Will she sail on her side?

Cheers,
Bruce Baker
"Yee Ha"

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Response Posted - 07/10/2002 : 10:10:42

This is a good question that I'm sure a few of us have wondered about. Most of us would have been reefed at 20 kts, I think. I can see why your boat is called Yee Ha!
One of my previous boats was a 36' full keel with 20,000 lb. displacement. The original owner told me that he had capsized her in a squall of 40+ kts. when he was trying to rescue some other boaters who had also capsized. Apparently she recovered nicely when he released the sheets with no damage but that's A LOT of boat to lie down! Must have been a very hairy moment especially since his wife and two children were down below. At least they didn't get thrown overboard and tangled in the rigging or whatever. They had just gone out for a nice day sail!

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Todd Frye
Navigator

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Response Posted - 07/10/2002 : 13:23:45

When I first got my C-25 SR/SK 3 years ago, I had the same question. I've been out in 20 knot winds, main reefed and the 130 head sail pushing me along at a constant 7.3 knots. The rail was just touching the water, but it felt very stable. I probably would not have said "it felt very stable" 3 years ago, but I have come to trust the stability of this boat. Advise from this board was, when your rail goes in the water, let out sail. I might add, in strong wind you should have your companionway closed and your cockpit lockers secured, incase of a knockdown. Water could access below decks easily if these areas are not secured. I believe the boat would have to heel more than 90 degrees ( flat on its side) to let the swing keel fall backwards into the keel trunk. If water got below, this could affect an angle of more than 90 degrees. Don't forget your jack line / harness either. We had an untethered captain get separated from his ship, leaving a novice alone on board in gale conditions. Thankfully this mishap ended well.Todd Frye

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/10/2002 : 13:34:22

I would have to say given a senario with the right conditions yes she could go over. I must say howerver a capsize and a knock down are not the same. What you seem to be talking about is a knockdown. You go all the way over untill your mast is parallel to the water and your cabin interior rearanges itself. NOW thats a knock down. The wind will empty from the sails and the boat will right itself. By now everyone has let go of the sheets and is just trying to stay aboard so the sails all are unattended and will flog and thrash about. If they are sheeted in they should be freed immediatly. Capsize is another beast altogether. At this point you have lost it and your center of gravity is 180 deg out. In other words your upside down.
In the event of heavy wind 1) never cleat off the jib. 2) be very attentive of the sails and ready to round up or let out sail. You and the crew should be on the sheets 100%. If your boat is sailing in these conditions be sure to have the lazarette closed and latched. There have been a few cases of sinking due to the lazarette flying open in a knock down and rather than the cockpit filling it all went into the lazarette and below. You chould also have hatch boards in AND SECURE. If you dont secure the hatch boards they will come out. The last manuver a Catalina will do before a knock down is to broach. If your rig is correct this is what should happen. No mater how much you turn the tiller when the boat heels to far the rudder will be mostly out of the water or at so much of an angle its almost none effective. The force on the head sail and main will overcome the force of the rudder and your boat will round up into the wind. Not a nice thing to happen either. One last thing practice and preperation should keep you out of trouble. You should see the storm comming and prepare well ahead of time.

Doug&Ruth
Wind Lass
Tacoma Wa.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 07/10/2002 : 16:18:18

Bruce,
I have this friend, you know, that went out in heavy weather one day while he and his crew were heavily intoxicated. All of the sudden a gust knocked his (my friend's) boat over so far that those little cups that go round on the wind speed instrument at the top of the mast went into the water.
When he (my friend that is) came back into the marina everyone said our eyes as big as silver dollars <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> !

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/10/2002 : 17:45:16

Doug - that's an excellent summation! I do, however, have a minor disagreement on point 1. "never cleat the jib" (in these conditions) - if the crew are holding the sheet, there is a tendency (especially under the pressure of heavy air) for his arm to gradually extend - this powers up the jib which is the last thing you want to happen! In very heavy conditions I like the jib pancake flat and will luff drive the main to keep control.
Incidentally, I don't know about the C25 swing keel - but I sank a C22 swinger under just the conditions that Bruce described.
Derek

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/10/2002 : 18:31:25

Bruce,

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Generally speaking, sailboats with keels do not capsize. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Given the right conditions, any sailboat can capsize. Boats 40-60 feet long and weighing tens of thousands of pounds have both capsized and pitchpoled (flipped end-over-end) while sailing in the huge seas near Cape Horn. If I remember correctly, Francis Chichester capsized his 57 foot boat, rolling through 360 degrees, on two separate occasions during one passage from England to Australia.

As Douglas points out, a knockdown is, generally speaking, where the top of the mast points approximately parallel to the water surface. A capsize is where the top of the mast definitely points downward.

I have never seen or heard of a C-25 capsizing in an inland lake, and believe it would only happen in a freak situation. But C-25's do experience knockdowns on inland lakes, and it's not terribly uncommon.

The only places where a C-25, or any reasonably well designed, ballasted boat, is likely to suffer a capsize is (1) in massive, or breaking seas in the open ocean, or (2) in massive, or breaking seas while entering or leaving an inlet in a storm. In short, ordinarily, wind alone will not capsize a ballasted sailboat. It requires wind and massive or breaking waves to overcome the offset weight of the ballast and make the boat roll over so far that the mast begins to point downward. Ballasted boats are unlikely to capsize on inland lakes because sufficiently large waves cannot be generated on those lakes.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I can imagine a scenario when you put the boat over on its side, the keel slaps back up into the trunk, and over she goes. Should I worry about that? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I've never known it to happen, and believe it's not likely to happen on an inland lake, but you definitely should worry about it, because it is possible. However, when you put the boat over on her side like that, it's also possible that a windward mast stay might break, and dismast the boat, or the keel mechanism or keel bolts might break and sink the boat. None of those things are likely to happen, but they are all possible, and you should always be aware that, when you stress the boat to its limits, something bad might happen.

When you bought a swing keel boat, you got benefits that we do not all share. You can go into shallow areas that we can't. It is easier to launch and retrieve your boat than if you had a different keel. But you also have disadvantages. The biggest disadvantage is that the keel is not as robust as a fixed keel boat.

If I had a swing keel boat, I would race her hard and not be afraid of an occasional run-of-the-mill knockdown, but I would avoid an extreme knockdown, where the mast tip is near the water, for the very reason you suggest. It probably won't happen, but why press your luck that far?

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/10/2002 : 19:55:08

Derek we can always dissagree. However I have alwways been taught never to cleat of a sheet in heavy weather. One extra rap around the winch will hold a sheet firmly in place with no strain to the crew other than keeping the tailing end tight. Most people cleat off with a figure eight. Big mistake because in a situation like we are talking about most people and get the line undone. This makes it impossable to sheet out. Preference I guess but I never never use the figure 8

Doug&Ruth
Wind Lass
Tacoma Wa.

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 07/10/2002 : 21:24:37

Doug - I'm sorry, I misunderstood. My jib sheets cleat into camcleats (and can be thrown off instantly). I never even considered that some may have the old horn cleats.<img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> In that situation I definitely agree with you.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

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Douglas
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Response Posted - 07/10/2002 : 21:50:11

Yo Derek yea aren't cam cleats great. I still see Catalinas with the old cleats. I have some on my boat but mostly they are used for mooring.

Doug&Ruth
Wind Lass
Tacoma Wa.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/11/2002 : 09:38:57

Another option that I use on my boat for jib sheets is clam cleats. They are very quick and easy to set and release. The only drawback is that the plastic ones need to be replaced every 2-3 years, because they lose their grip, but they're not expensive. Last year I installed aluminum clam cleats. It remains to be seen how long they will last.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 07/11/2002 : 10:26:13

Steve - I used to have those aluminum clam cleats on the C22, but threw them away after a few months because the lazy sheet seemed to hang up in them every time we tacked. (The C22 I crewed on in their Nationals also had them - and produced the same problem).
Derek

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2002 : 13:43:39

Doug & Derek: I've wanted to put some cams by my winches--do I need to block them up? What about Winchers (rubber rings like on a self-tailer)? I tried them, but my sheets are too fat.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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John Mason
Admiral

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Response Posted - 07/11/2002 : 14:31:04

Dave,
I put clams near my winches (haven't had the hang-up problem Derek describes). To create a fair lead I used angled cleat pads (wedge shape). The one problem I do have is occasionally I catch my toe on the sheet and it uncleats really fast.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 07/11/2002 : 16:47:59

Dave - what size winches do you have? I replaced my originals several years ago for 2-speed larger ones. I had to put 2 risers under each cleat to get a fairlead (and had one hell of a job finding 4" long SS bolts...) When I had the original winches I only needed one riser to get the fairlead. (Harken sells the risers to fit under their C150 cleats and they also fit under Ronstan's, which are what I have now).
I tried Winchers long ago - but they are useless for racing (just like self-tailing winches)'cos they are so slow to release. For cruising they work great!
John - I don't know why we had so much trouble with clam cleats - but I bet that the darn things grabbed the lazy sheet at least 2 out of 3 tacks! And in the C22 Nationals when that happens you probably lose another two places!)
Derek

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Douglas
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Response Posted - 07/11/2002 : 17:18:39

I have 4 winches total on my cockpit combings. One one speed and one two speed on each side. Aft of the last winch on each side I have a cam cleat with lead through loop on the cleat. I quit using them because if I lead the sheet through the cleat its at a downward angle from the winch. This causes over rides on the winch. Eventualy Ill have to block the cam cleats up so the angle of the sheet is higher.

Doug&Ruth
Wind Lass
Tacoma Wa.

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John Mason
Admiral

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Response Posted - 07/11/2002 : 17:20:13

Hi Derek,
I'm not trying to create a clam vs. cam debate. Both are great. When I bought my boat, it only had horn cleats near the winches. Coming from a racing background, I'd never seen that and knew it would never do for me. The boats I raced on had clams so I went with clams. The only thing I can think of as to why mine don't hang up is I oriented them so they're a 45* angling back to the helm (I was thinking "single-handing" at the time). The sheet wants to drop perpendicular into the cockpit, so misses snagging the clam. But that's just my nutty theory. On the down side, when I have crew on board, the cleats aren't lined up with their sheeting position.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 07/11/2002 : 18:45:04

John -I think that perhaps your "nutty theory" is actually correct<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle> On the C22 we had 2 on each side - one perpendicular to the cockpit and one 45* forward. Also on our old C22 they were perpendicular to the cockpit - it seemed that they almost acted as magnets to grab the lazy sheet!
Derek

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/12/2002 : 14:34:13

Derek,

Like John Mason, my clam cleats are angled about 45 deg. back toward the helm, and the lazy sheet rarely hangs up. They used to hang up more often, but with practice, I learned to pay attention to how I left the lazy sheet hanging.

I have sailed other peoples' C-25s with cam cleats, but in strong wind the tension on the sheet is so great that it is sometimes difficult to uncleat the sheet. On many occasions I have had to use the winch handle to take tension off the sheet, so I could get it out of a cam cleat. If you are bearing down on the beam of a starboard tack boat and can't release the sheets, it gets scarey. I have never had the slightest difficulty uncleating the sheet from a clam cleat. It comes out with a flip of one hand.

It is also more difficult to cleat the sheet with a cam cleat. First, you have to take up all the slack in the sheet, then lay it in the cleat, and then pull it in another inch or so, to force the jaws of the cam cleat to open and grab the sheet. With a clam cleat, you take up the slack in the sheet, and lay it in the clam, and it grabs the sheet immediately. In light air, that is no problem, but in strong wind, it might require that you use the winch handle to pull the sheet in that extra inch or two that is required by the cam cleat. Using the winch handle requires two hands, and if you are singlehanding the boat, it overtaxes your resources during a tack. You don't have enough hands to get everything done.

Clam cleats don't grip as firmly as cam cleats, and in strong winds I have to put four or even five wraps on the winch, to keep the clam cleat from slipping, but that is a minor inconvenience when weighed against their ease of use. When tacking singlehanded, I can flip the sheet out of the clam with one hand, haul in the sheet on the other side, and just lay it in the other clam and it will grip. When I want to play the jibsheet out, it is easy to uncleat it with one hand, no matter how strong the wind, keeping the other hand free to steer the boat. To bring the jibsheet in tighter in strong wind, I can tail the sheet with one hand, crank the winch handle with the other, and steer momentarily with my knee.

As John Mason pointed out, it is so easy to uncleat a clam cleat that you can do it inadvertently just by kicking or bumping the end of the sheet, but you learn not to do that, and it is seldom a problem.

The advice to never cleat a sheet in heavy weather is generally good, but, if you are caught in heavy weather, and cruising or racing for many hours, you have to cleat the sheets to avoid becoming exhausted. It's o.k. to cleat the sheets, as long as the type of cleat you are using enables you to release them instantly, if necessary.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 07/12/2002 : 16:08:21

Steve - that's very interesting to read of your problems cleating & uncleating cam cleats. I've never had a problem even in the heaviest air - probably because the locking bolts are deliberately not as tight as possible. This allows the jaws to open and close very easily and still not release inadverdently. I guess we "dance with the one who brung us" (to quote a good old boy Texan). Does anyone else have any thoughts on cam vs clam?
I too, do much single-handing - it's amazing how good you get to be able to steer with your knee! (Although my bungee tiller holder does help)
Derek

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triley
Captain

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USA
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Response Posted - 07/12/2002 : 23:39:14

Wait-Wait. I have self tailing winches ( I thought wee all did) and have my crws haul them with one wrap when we are racong and then put another wrap on, and then self tail when we have then ready for fine tuning. Isn't that what everubody does? Do I have something special on AUWE ?

Tom

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2002 : 02:52:34

Ok, on my old boat I had cams and clams. Cams on the sheets and clams on the halayards. No clues where the crabs were. My Cat had and still has the old horned cleats for the jib. I added clams as a winter project. I like them, and only once did I have any dificulty with releaseing them. The old cams were hard to release in a hurry when it was blowing.
I have mine angled toward the back and am thinking of adding a second pair facing 90 degrees in.
When single handing I will sometimes take one turn and bring the sheet over to the high side with two turns and winch it in with my knee holding the tiller in place. Works, but having the admiral along is better.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Matt Loeffler
E.C. Rider
Cat 25 86'
FK/SR _/)

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2002 : 12:54:37

Hmmmm... I'm beginning to like the clam idea--maybe even one 45 degrees aft (for when I'm sheeting) and one 45 degrees forward (for the Admiral). I'll have to take a closer look.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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