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Adjusting Back Stay ??????

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wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/18/2007 : 09:52:38

Here is one for discussion:
In no way were our boats designed for racing, cruising was it's sole purpose. With that said I will submitt that having and adjustable back stay in my mind makes no sense seeing's how our rig is very stiff and what little movement can be attained by tighting the back stay is futile at best. Especially when you can make the same adjustments with tighting the the Headsail halyard or loosening it on the down wind. Also being able to adjust the outhaul and down haul will serve well. Here is my question, what do you guys think and is there an advantage that I haven't seen?

Bill Meinert
Commodore
Sailing Longwind #1408

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2007 : 10:39:26

There are advantages you haven't seen, but Derek is the undisputed expert with regard to the adjustable backstay, so I'll let him answer your question. Everything I know about it, I learned from him.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/18/2007 : 12:05:01

Thank you for your confidence, Mr.Milby - I'm not sure that it's warranted. However,
I carry a very loose forestay (10" of sag) and backstay. This tends to put deeper draft in the genoa and generate more power. It also gives the helmsman a wider "groove" to sail going to weather and makes the genoa much more powerful when poled out.
When the wind starts to pick-up, I tighten the backstay which takes most of the sag out of the forestay, takes draft out of the genoa and makes pointing higher possible. It also, to a lesser degree, depowers the main.
When the wind really pipes up and we are beginning to get overpowered, I crank the backstay down hard. In conjunction with the traveler, the cunningham, the outhaul and the vang we can usually get comfortable.
In other words - an adjustable backstay is a very useful sail control.

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2007 : 12:23:30

I agree with Derek. I was in a good blow the adjustable backstay works wonders. I wish I would have had one.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5895 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2007 : 16:54:22

Bill, the reason why most people don't see any value in an adjustable backstay is because most people don't know how to tune the rig so that it works. If you tension all the shrouds, headstay and backstay more or less equally, then all those shrouds and stays prevent the mast from bending in any direction. You have to adjust the rig so that the headstay has an enormous amount of sag when the adjuster is eased, as Derek described. If the headstay does have sag, then, when you put tension on the adjuster, the top of the mast can bend aft until the headstay becomes taut. If the aft lowers have a little slack in them, then the middle of the mast is able to bow forward.

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Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2007 : 08:30:35

Hi Bill,
I agree with Steve that the reason most people don't see much value in the adjustable backstay is that all the standing rigging is tensioned about equally.

Another option though is one that I saw a few years ago in Long Beach CA. Several of the C25s had their rigs tuned with very loose aft lower shrouds. When the backstay was loosened, the mast stood straight with the forward lowers supporting the middle of the mast - putting more draft in the mainsail. When the backstay was tightened, the middle of the mast would bend forward till the aft lowers tensioned and supported the lower half of the mast, while the forward lowers became slack. Of course, bending the middle of the mast forward flattened the mainsail so as to point higher. This setup allowed for a specific shifting of gears from upwind to downwind points of sail.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

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wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2007 : 10:22:36

Well that probally explains more to me than I realized, I never leave any slack in my side stays or fore and sft stays, but I do control head foil tention with my halyard, especailly down wind, I do think my option is cheaper, and I have had good results. Also I forgot to mention that having a loose footed main is a lot easier to read main sail shape than the traditional main.

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Admin
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Response Posted - 04/21/2007 : 17:59:33

Your halyard tension is not going to have the same effect on your mainsail as raking the rig back will.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/22/2007 : 06:05:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I do control head foil tention with my halyard, especailly down wind, I do think my option is cheaper, and I have had good results. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I did the same thing for many years, Bill, and had good racing success, too. I've always had a backstay adjuster, but didn't use it for years because I didn't know how to tune the rig for it until Derek explained it. Now that I have used the backstay adjuster, I'm sold on it. When you use your halyard to adjust the luff tension of your sails, you use more tension when the wind is strong, and you use less tension in light air. But, when you start in light air, and the wind picks up during the race, it's very difficult to go forward, uncleat the halyard and increase the luff tension while you're racing. With a backstay adjuster, you can increase or decrease your headstay sag, as well as other aspects of sail shape, every time the wind puffs or lulls, and every time you bear off onto a downwind course, and all it takes is to pull or release one line. You can race very effectively without an adjuster, but it helps you the most when the windspeed is varying widely, because you can effectively change the whole tuning of your rig, back and forth and on the fly, between light air tuning to heavy air tuning.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/22/2007 07:53:13

wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 08:54:56

That's why I have my jib halyard coming back to the cockpit, to avoid ever having to go forward, plus you can use the wench to add tention. But in any event it was good reading this stuff! I will keep what I have though, one less tweek is one less forgotten to use!

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 11:49:20

My wench is very good at providing tension, but that's another story.

I read these posts very closely last week in preparation for adding some sag to my fore and aft stays. When I got to my boat Sunday, however, I noticed that I don't have much room to loosen the necessary turnbuckles. I have perhaps a quarter inch of screw showing on each of the open turnbuckles. How much looser should I make them to be able to utlize my backstay adjuster in the manner employed by Derek Crawford? Are my forestay and backstay just a bit too short?

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 12:02:36

Still not the same Bill - The sag you create by loosening the halyard does not impact the camber of the Main in the upper 2/3rds of the sail.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 12:11:50

Ben - with only that small amount of adjustment left, I doubt that you could get them anywhere near as loose as mine.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 13:11:47

It is the headsail that takes advantage of the soft forestay by powering up and does so much more than Bill can accomplish with halyard tension. Bill you are just going to look like a scalloped newby when Derek has a clean entry to a softened luff. You are really good with your boat but until you get with the adjustable backstay you are going to be caught flat footed by your competition when you should be kicking their butts. I even use an adjuster to shape my CDI furler. I also would never want to sail in the wind ranges I sail in without the option of hardening up my rig while on the water.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 13:14:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 Ben - with only that small amount of adjustment left, I doubt that you could get them anywhere near as loose as mine.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have a cast toggle extension at my stem fitting to allow some slack on my forestay.

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Admin
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Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 14:50:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 It is the headsail that takes advantage of the soft forestay by powering up and does so much more than Bill can accomplish with halyard tension. Bill you are just going to look like a scalloped newby when Derek has a clean entry to a softened luff. You are really good with your boat but until you get with the adjustable backstay you are going to be caught flat footed by your competition when you should be kicking their butts. I even use an adjuster to shape my CDI furler. I also would never want to sail in the wind ranges I sail in without the option of hardening up my rig while on the water.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As you crank it down Frank, you also flatten the upper 2/3 of the main as Rake is induced. This is going to move the draft and facilitate sailing as wind speed increases too.

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 15:54:02

Do you have a part number, by any chance, of the "cast toggle extension" you mentioned, and a source for it? I'd really like to be as competetive as I can cost-effectively be.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 16:01:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ben
 Do you have a part number, by any chance, of the "cast toggle extension" you mentioned, and a source for it? I'd really like to be as competetive as I can cost-effectively be.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Go to this link and scroll down to toggles.

[url="http://mauriprosailing.com/rigging.htm"]Mauriprosailing[/url]

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 19:13:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Admin
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 It is the headsail that takes advantage of the soft forestay by powering up and does so much more than Bill can accomplish with halyard tension. Bill you are just going to look like a scalloped newby when Derek has a clean entry to a softened luff. You are really good with your boat but until you get with the adjustable backstay you are going to be caught flat footed by your competition when you should be kicking their butts. I even use an adjuster to shape my CDI furler. I also would never want to sail in the wind ranges I sail in without the option of hardening up my rig while on the water.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As you crank it down Frank, you also flatten the upper 2/3 of the main as Rake is induced. This is going to move the draft and facilitate sailing as wind speed increases too.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
pardon my response; Duh.

I think the big issue here was that Bill felt he had control of his headsail without a backstay adjuster, he doesn't. " when you can make the same adjustments with tighting the the Headsail halyard or loosening it on the down wind" It is good to explain all the advantages to a backstay adjuster but the primary issue was his headsail. And even when our rigs are setup for mast bend it does not come close to what that term implies on a bendy fractional rig where you genuinely gain a gear from flattening your main with the backstay adjuster. So anyway, I think there is an advantage to setting our rigs up with loose aft lowers to provide for mast bend and forestay management; and Bill will be faster.

Note photo in sig of last place boat from '05 Nationals!

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 20:50:09

Hi Don,

I followed that link and scrolled down to Toggles and found nothing that indicated it was a toggle extension. Did you see it on the website? If so, can you tell me which one it is? Is it labeled so someone who doesn't know about such things could identify it?

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2007 : 20:56:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Admin
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 It is the headsail that takes advantage of the soft forestay by powering up and does so much more than Bill can accomplish with halyard tension. Bill you are just going to look like a scalloped newby when Derek has a clean entry to a softened luff. You are really good with your boat but until you get with the adjustable backstay you are going to be caught flat footed by your competition when you should be kicking their butts. I even use an adjuster to shape my CDI furler. I also would never want to sail in the wind ranges I sail in without the option of hardening up my rig while on the water.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As you crank it down Frank, you also flatten the upper 2/3 of the main as Rake is induced. This is going to move the draft and facilitate sailing as wind speed increases too.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
pardon my response; Duh.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2007 : 06:52:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ben
 Hi Don,

I followed that link and scrolled down to Toggles and found nothing that indicated it was a toggle extension. Did you see it on the website? If so, can you tell me which one it is? Is it labeled so someone who doesn't know about such things could identify it?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

http://schaeferhardware.com/SearchResult.aspx?KeyWords=toggle

Mine is cast but stamped is fine. "toggle" is a very generic term, so there will not be a descriptor like "forestay extender" you simply order one that looks long enough to make a difference for you.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2007 : 11:59:47

Ben, before you buy anything, first check your existing turnbuckles on both your headstay and backstay. See if the screws on both ends of each turnbuckle are threaded into the turnbuckle an equal number of threads. If not, you can often increase the length simply by unscrewing them completely and threading them back on equally. Be careful, though, to use a halyard to hold up your mast while each stay is disconnected.

Edited by - on

dblitz
Navigator

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240 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2007 : 20:26:28

Thanks everybody for your incredible input. This weekend, I'm going out to play with (among other things) my backstay tensioner.

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listenup
Deckhand

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14 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2007 : 18:57:02

I am in the process of putting together a backstay tensioner. What is recommended for line diameter for running line and what length? It will be for a Harken 3 sheave block on both ends. I would imagine to cutting the length of the backstay to 26'4" as indicated in the original Cat 25 handbook. Does this sound correct? (Standard rig)
Thanks,
Mike

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 01/01/2008 : 21:48:33

Thanks, everyone, for posting this thread. You've discussed a question that I have wanted to ask for a while now, but kept forgetting to ask; i.e. optimum forestay tension. On our C-22, we keep about 15" of side-to-side play in the forestay for the reasons mentioned above, using the backstay to adjust. What readings do you get on the tension gauge for each set of shrouds (forward lowers, middle, aft lowers)?
One other advantage of the adjustable backstay, it keeps the backstay centered from masthead to transom, instead of angling off to one side of the traveler.

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