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PHRF Certificates?

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wmeinert@kconline.com
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Initially Posted - 04/11/2007 : 14:54:21

As one of the founders of this new forum I have been waiting for a long time to bring up exclusive racing issues to help foster racing within our C-25 community! One of the first questions we need to ask is how can we aquire a PHFR handi cap rating for our own boat. As we are by no means a one design boat we can definitely develop one if we can start by PHRF assignment to each Keel, rudder, and mast configuration. As the swing keel SR is probably the most plentiful in our association I would like to start with it. Duane you are by far the most knowledgeable about this (or anyone else besides me) how when and where can I get my own certificate? Plus is anyone interested in getting theirs?

Bill Meinert
Commodore
Sailing Longwind #1408

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/11/2007 : 16:09:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by wmeinert@kconline.com
 One of the first questions we need to ask is how can we aquire a PHFR handi cap rating for our own boat. As we are by no means a one design boat we can definitely develop one if we can start by PHRF assignment to each Keel, rudder, and mast configuration.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Bill,

Aren't PHRF ratings/certificates issued by local/regional sailing entities?

Edited by - on

wmeinert@kconline.com
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Response Posted - 04/11/2007 : 16:18:54

Thats a question I never understood. I could be wrong, but I thought there was kind of a National organization Such as USSAILING that kept track of the scores after the PHRF was issued. I know I have asked many a sailor how to get one, But they all seem to think that because we are not a one design class that we cann't get one. Every where I race I am usually one of maybe 2 boats in the same class and the RCC just scratches his ass and says ok poof your are a 228-248 because there just isn't enough information about C-25 racing. I think maybe they association might start being responsible somehow to clear the air.

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 04/11/2007 : 16:59:15

I have enough data to answer this - just need to do a bit of research then get back with everyone.

dw

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 04/11/2007 : 21:01:19

As to your main question "how can we aquire a PHFR handi cap rating for our own boat" I will get to that in a moment.. Let me lay down some groundwork first.

First it is PHRF, Performance Handicap Racing Fleet, and is pronounced perf in the Midwest and parts of the east coast and mostly P-H-R-F by most other areas.

your second statement:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">" As we are by no means a one design boat we can definitely develop one if we can start by PHRF assignment to each Keel, rudder, and mast configuration. As the swing keel SR is probably the most plentiful in our association I would like to start with it."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This stuff exists. Our Boats have ratings all over the country and any US Sailing member can purchase the PHRF Book. It is not up to us to try and figure it out. Though we have and have base numbers within our class racing rules for areas that don’t have a PHRF org. These numbers have the Tall rig outboard as scratch starting at 0 seconds per mile with the adjustments going from there from each boat. Anything more than rating us for competition within our own boat classes becomes a slippery slope and is outside our charter as an association with US sailing. Plus as I note below the regional twist of PHRF does not fit our international title. We wouldn’t do everyone in our group justice, nor could we. PHRF has its flaws and that is with a hug body of people dealing with it. It is pretty much out of scope for us. I discussed at one point with you the concept of creating class PHRF certificates, but they really wouldn't hold much weight outside our class racing. I have a variation on that a few paragraphs ahead.
PHRF is a regional deal. That is why the numbers vary from area to area. For example in really light air boat A might be faster than boat B. For the purposes of this example, let’s say the average wind speed On Lake Acme is 10 knots. Boat A would get a lower rating than boat b. But let’s say on Lake Generic the wind speed is 25 knots on average. In that wind Boat b is routinely coming in second to boat A but only by a few seconds. In that region Boat b might only get a rating a few points higher than boat A.
A few other things - <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Such as USSAILING that kept track of the scores after the PHRF was issued.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Absolutely not true. Different local phrf orgs might. PHRF Key West Race Week, PHRF PNW (not sure of real name) PHRF SD, PHRF Chicago and PHRF North East are trend setters and collect this data. Most follow PHRF KWRW’s lead. But there is no master of the books, so to speak.
And not everybody does it the same, phrf allows for time on distance and time on time scoring. Not many people do the time on time, but those areas using those ratings tend to flex a bit more. In Cleveland, as you now from last years Nationals, the boats racing PHRF-LE JAM have the 10 seconds extra tacked to the per mile time. It isn’t to compare Spin the JAM – but for some reason that is why they do it. You will almost never find a JAM boat racing against a spin boat in the bigger venues. It just isn’t done. The big boats don’t want to waste their time and the JAMMERS would be sick of losing.
Some groups make modifications to the ratings for any number of reasons. All but three boats in PHRF-LE received a 3 second per mile credit a few years ago (we are at 231 for spinnaker racing) . These adjustments occur often and all over. It is important that when you travel you look at the difference between your boat and similar boats in both regions. Simply griping about a rating or being ecstatic about a rating could really be a moot point if the Cal 25 is still even with you in both places.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I think maybe they association might start being responsible somehow to clear the air.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> We aren't sanctioned to actually create PHRF ratings as mentioned above. However it wouldn’t hurt for those that travel to a lot of venues to have a form letter from the International Association Chief Measurer. Something that says if you are traveling to a venue without a rating…..boats racing according to class rules rate – then list the most current ratings for that boat in a number of different areas. That would at least give some of the pond phrfs a starting point.
More differences – different areas different rules. Take out the cushions, remove the table, put the motor on the floor of the cabin. If you are racing in different locations then read the local PHRF rules. PHRF –LE allows most of the cushions to go, the table to be removed and the motor to be moved off the transom. Again at this years Nationals the motor can be removed and put on the cabin floor. It must remain on board. This was done in order keep us competitive for JAM Cleveland Race Week Overall award. Nobody took theirs off the transom last year If I race this year you absolutely bet your sweet bippy that motor is in my cabin; especially if we have another 7kt day. Know the local rules adjustments and take advantage of them. Your competitor surely is.
Now for your own PHRF certificate.
Find the closest PHRF to you here at US Sailing and contact the guy and pay the fee, get a measurement if needed and get the certificate. http://www.ussailing.org/phrf/phrfcon.asp
If you don’t have anybody locally, then consider the link on that page to start your own in your area.
To get one a bit quicker, since you will be racing CRW this year, get on the horn with PHRF-LE. Either via email or phone and tell them you will be racing race week and are considering sticking around for the Leukemia Cup, the Lighthouse series and all the other races up on Lake Erie. Whether or not you change your mind really has no bearing – though you did mention that at one point after the blender party last year, so you really wouldn’t be lying... You will need to get measured but normally that entails a few phone questions for our size boats. Pay your money, get your certificate.

Edited by - on

wmeinert@kconline.com
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Response Posted - 04/12/2007 : 10:21:41

Thanks Duane, we really need to save that info as a good resource for all, but here is part two of the whole PHRF issue and class racing. At what point should we or could we establish one design criteria for racing. Keel design asside, I'm talking about what is considered acceptable boat minimums.
1. Cushions/No Cushions
2. Required Minumum Safety Equipment
a. anchor size, line, chain ect
b. Life lines, Pulpit/No Pulpit
c. Motor/No Motor Mounted
3. Oversized blocks and tackle, boom vangs lines, ect
4. Sails/ Roller fulers, fast tackkguides, and sizes and design.

The reason why I'm bringing this up is there are simple and major ways to improve our racing equipment and skills but are they legal? The rules say you can not make any changes to the standing rigging, but is removing the pulpit and life lines considered standing rigging? I would love to remove my saftey lines to aid in better head sail trim and less snags. The newer 25's have their car tracks inside thier life lines which is realy a pain close hualed. Also the issues of Spinakers comes into play too, they fly so much better with out the pulpit. This will be a major issue in Portland next year if the Nationals go there.
This is good dialoge that I as the Chief Measure am interested in making clear to all and putting it into policy if we can.

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 04/12/2007 : 20:30:17

After 5 years of being in your position i've determine that there are basically 5 things you need to consider when proposing new rules....

proposed rule changes should not alienate groups of members (within reason, if a guy rebuilds his boat into a planing rocket ship then yes) either intentionally or unintentionally.

Proposed rule changes should promote competition.

Proposed rule changes should keep someone from gaining an unfair advantage.

Proposed rule changes should protect whatever semblance of one design we have left.

Proposed rule changes should not impact safety negatively

Or to put it succinctly The rules should be Fair, Safe and fun...

You really have to be careful when messing with safety equipment, pulpits or rigging. My advice to anyone is to not make any changes to our class rules that would adjust any of these things. Generally speaking, removal of items that are bolted on is ill advised.

I'll try and bite off each of your items one by one. Before I do, it is important to note that much of this stuff is addressed in our class rules.

(Your first paragraph) re: Establishing a one design class - We are about 30 years too late. This should have been established by Butler when the boat was designed...for example std rig swing keel would be the one design racing class and only one design racing class the others would have been phrf racers or cruisers.
At that point appropriate hardware and configuration designs of the harware should have been dictated. Once that was in place, the rules would only have been modified if and only if there were a. new technology b. structural concerns c. new governmental laws and d. phase out of old technology. Unfortunately this isn't the case the racing portion of the class association was created as an afterthought. Trying to establish one boat and rig as the one design class within our organization would alienate tons of people in our association, racers and non racers alike. Instead of working on that model I think we need to work with what we have now trying to preserve and build on it and not let anything get further out of whack.

Because many of us race PHRF in our local areas and only race one design for nationals or the sporadic regatta Like the Harvest moon, things that we dictate that might change someones PHRF rating should be considered heavily before proposing or enacting.

1. Cushions no Cushions - usually 1 set of cushions (read as two cushions in total - usually bow)need to remain on board for phrf rules. Most PHRF bodies initially rated boats after review of class rules - if in existence. Pulling the cushions is probably fine, but when you start getting into weight adjustments you risk having people have their local ratings change. I pull mine for most of the big local PHRF stuff I do because we are allowed. Some PHRF's dictate that a boat needs to race based on class rules.

2. Required minimum safety equipment is set by law, class rules, the notice of race and in some cases ISAF RRs 2005-2008 appendixes for offshore racing. Any other safety equipment changes should only be to beef up the requirements. Never skimp on safety or beer.

2a - our rules are the bare minimum - anchor with enough line for the area racing and enough weight to hold the boat. On another boat I race on we had a 8 lb danforth to cut weight. an anchor sitting on the keel is not going to decrease performance. Everyone has to have one therefore no advantage or disadvantage.

2b - Lifelines - don't go there. If you allow the removal of lifelines you open up tons of can's of worms. First being PHRF. Their regs which would penalize anyone without when not racing one design. A torso outside of the sheer still means you can hang your legs and hike like racers should. How many people knew that? As for pulling out the pulpit - the boat was made for a tri-radial or cross cut symetrical spinnaker. There is no problem flying one of those with a pulpit. Kites are supposed to be out in front of the boat anyway so even an asym shouldn't be a problem. Maybe gybing an asym might be a problem. When it comes to pulpits and lifelines you start broaching the safety issue and the changing stuff that is bolted down issue. Liability wise, condoning the removal of such could be a slippery slope.

2c - I was never a fan of the motor mount thing. It is laughable within the racing community and in the case where we are just a fleet within a large event it makes us very uncompetitive for overall scoring. I routinely pull our motor off on Wed and Sunday nights. That is why we waived the motor on the transom during Nationals last year and this year. I'm pulling mine off this year and putting it in the cabin where it belongs during racing. In my opinion the rule to have the motor on the transom should be the exception not the norm. I understand the rule to some degree in places with current, but again think that should be factored into the notice of race and not into our class rules.. Minimum weight (including gas tank) should be reviewed and considered as part of a full measurement.

3 - We currently have no restrictions on hardware. The closest we get is mandating that the traveler must remain attached to the original transom location. It doesn't even state that it has to be the bar, you could put a track on there if you would like. I think we should implement these - but with a 1 year notice...as in starting in 2008 no mainsheet tackle can be more than 6 to one. Blocks that provide more purchase shall not be used and be taped closed with white tape so as to be inoperable. Boom vangs shall not be more than 8 to one. Adujstiable aft stays etc. We really need to promote competition, not allow the guy with the bigger wallet to go out and steal his trophy. ImHO - having all the hardware and having it functioning is more important that size. Relative to other boats we aren't really dealing with a lot of load when compared to other boats, but having all the fine tuning controls that might not have been standard equipment is imperative. One exception is the outhaul. that thing should be allowed to go up to 4 gazillion to one. Our outhauls suck.

4. Roller furlers get a credit so I'm not sure you really wanted to included them in this point. Sizes - nothing more than a 155 headsail. No penalties for bigger, just not allowed. No credits for smaller - you can't show up to a gunfight without the ammo! Not sure what a fast tack guide is, is that like a Tuff Luff? If so there is nothing that currently excludes them.

For the inside jib tracks - That is the way it is on many boats - it provides an advantage in that you can point higher. Possible rule change here - owners of pre 19?? models can install jib tracks 1.25 inches wide not to exceed XXX feet. Then get the data from one of the newer boats so that the positioning is identical and include that in the rule.

Other things to think about - There needs to be measurement in order to keep everyone honest. But not overbearing. That means out in portland we inspect randomly 1 thing from each boat and mandatory safety inspection of flare kit or first aid kits etc.

Take a look at large one design fleet rules and phrf rules. http://www.tten.com/T-10%20Class%20rules%202002.htm
is a good place to start. also look at the J22 and J24 class rules. These guys dictate everthing from allowable line type to maximum purchase to number of xyz allowed.

You might also consider putting limitations on the number of new sails someone can purchase over 4 years. Size of some block and tackle etc. or fabrics to keep the cost down. Maybe we even go so far as to have racers racing the nationals buy 4 year permits on their sails (10 bucks paid to the sailmaker) the permit is a cloth sticker with our logo signed off by the sailmaker that states he made the stuff within the class rules. The sailmaker buys the things for 8 bucks from the association and files paperwork when he uses one. The association then keeps track of newly purchased sails and only sails in the register can be used at an event.(intial ones are free and used sails are grandfathered)

Again some of this stuff is me running off at the mouth; take it for what its worth....

I am not opposed to changes but my big concern is that we need to make sure we do not alienate.

DW

Edited by - Champipple on 04/13/2007 07:04:09

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 04/12/2007 : 22:24:19

A great summation, Duane. The only item with which I disagree is being allowed to take the motor off the transom. It's personal with me 'cos mine has remote controls and cannot be taken into the cabin.

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 04/12/2007 : 22:26:16

Knowing your competitive nature, if you didn't have the remote controls you'd be rigging up som kind of halyard hoist to take the brunt of the load.

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 04/13/2007 : 06:58:40

Since I mentioned that boats needed to be measured to keep everyone honest I thought I might bring this up for Bill or any other measurer that might fill the officer position.

This was told to me by a Sailmaker that does a lot of PHRF measuring and also loans out his loft for measurement when big regattas come to town. Big meaning 60+ boat fleets where everything from weight, chord lengths of the keel and sails are measured.

“As the association measurer you are there to measure boats in, not measure them out. Do everything within your power and within the rules to keep the boats on the water – especially in a class where only 20 boats at the most show up on average."

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/13/2007 : 09:16:47

I agree with most of Duane's analysis, except with regard to the removal of the outboard. I think you have to take into account the "norms" of the fleet that's racing. The norm in J22 and J24 fleets is to use a 4 hp 2 cycle outboard and remove and stow the outboard motor. The norm for C25s and 250s is to use a 9.8 hp outboard which might be 2 cycle, or might be a beefy 4 cycle motor. It is plainly unrealistic to suggest that they devise a hoisting rig, disconnect the hoses and cables, which, in the case of the C250's especially, might be fairly substantial, with their soft-links. Aside from the inconvenience of it, it is only a matter of time until someone either loses his motor to the deep, or someone gets hurt struggling with a heavy motor on a hoist while the boat is rolling, adrift, in choppy seas. If everyone uses 4 hp outboards, then removing them is no big deal, but when most of our members use much bigger, heavier, more complicated motors, allowing the removal of motors is unreasonable, and it unfairly puts the majority of our members at a disadvantage.

You said the reason that we allowed removal of the outboard motor was to "...keep us competitive for the JAM Cleveland Race Week Overall award." My guess is that 95% of our members who raced in last year's national regatta didn't care a whit about the Cleveland Race Week Overall award. They were there to race in our national regatta. The fact that nobody took theirs off the transom last year is proof of the fact that they didn't care about the CRW overall award. If they cared, they would have removed their motors. Likewise, my guess is that only one or two will remove their motors this year. All the rest will be at the disadvantage of those one or two.

I agree with all your rules of thumb for considering changes in the racing rules, and think they're very well thought out, but I also think that allowing the removal of motors violates two or three of those rules:

- Proposed rule changes should promote competition;

- Proposed rule changes should keep someone from gaining an unfair
advantage;

- proposed rule changes should not alienate groups of members,
either intentionally or unintentionally.

When most of our members can't realistically and conveniently take advantage the rule, it's unfair to them.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 04/13/2007 : 10:35:03

Thanks Steve!

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/13/2007 : 11:55:25

What about a HULA?

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 04/13/2007 : 14:55:51

don if you can finance one I will personally push to get the rules to allow it.

As for the removal of the outboard - Mine isn't that heavy, I didn't take into consideration the newer 4 strokes etc. I think the intent was to promote compitition, however I do see Steve's point.

How about some of the other facets - Lets not concentrate on the motors specifically - Bill is looking for ideas and input beyond just that.

Edited by - on

wmeinert@kconline.com
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Response Posted - 04/13/2007 : 19:12:56

With all that said, I have this.. because our biggest concern here is keeping it easy and standard for the Nationals, I can agree to a lot of what Duane has said, but most importantly, I worry of the cost to race our boats. I personally would like to see if not the boats try to make the sails be as close to a one design as possible. Maybe not a 155 and surely not a 110, but perhaps a nylon 125, HANK ON SAIL. I get a little concerned when I see someone race with a roller furler because of the inherent loss of good sail square feet to accomindate the roller furler. It's almost like taking candy from a baby when we hank on racers are against them. I'm not saying you can't have a high quality racing head sail made to fit a furler, but what is fare and does not give unfair advantage. Unfortunettly with in our association we don't have a challenger/fleet representative series to insure that all the boats that show up will be of the highest racing caliber. I would even like to investigate if we could somehow buy/find a contributer to provide racing head sails at the Nationals to give out to those who don't have one even if they were used but equal.

Secondly, because our boats are one design bastards, and I race against any all boats (PHRF) why can't we allow them to be as competitive as possible with some modfifications? Two years ago there was the big issue over spinaker types and ratings. As far as I know it was never resolved. If Portland comes up what are we going to do? Should we as an association vote to have ALL Nationals as JAM venues to again prevent unfair advantage?

Keep it guys I'm taking notes and trying to put together the questions. I am antisipating by all of this to have maybe a racing rules committee to reveue everything and submitt "possible rule updates". At some point I would personally like to see maybe 5-10 (as close as we can) one design challenger series of say SR/SK or SR/FIN classes race for a trophy with as much as possible even all across the board. This is not to alignate members but to bring out very highly skill master sailors and see what happens and learn from it. If we are going to continue the "OVERALL" trophie at the nationals, it has to be even, right now current PHRF rating don't even give the wing keel group a very fair chance. I would like to see their overall Handicap increased to around 280-300 to be competitive against people like Steve, Duane and myself. No one likes to blow away boats that are unbalance and noncompetitive.

Please guys keep this up, this good ju ju.

Edited by - wmeinert@kconline.com on 04/13/2007 19:37:23

dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/13/2007 : 20:16:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by wmeinert@kconline.com
 ...Unfortunately with in our association we don't have a challenger/fleet representative series to insure that all the boats that show up will be of the highest racing caliber.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I thought the problem was just getting boats to show up?

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 04/13/2007 : 21:29:14

I think you are slightly contradicting yourself Bill - 155 is what all PHRF boats are rated regardless the actual size of the sail, yet you want to go with a 125? My suggestion of sail purchase limits would keep costs down - that is why I recommended it.

As for the roller furler - Mike kicked both our behinds - and he had a furled headsail -If you could find someone to provide say even 1 headsails per boat that is about 15 grand. I wish you all the luck in the world but I don't see it happening.

The issue over spinnaker types and ratings is now taken care of in the racing rules. Asyms cannot have any more square footage than the symetrical kite.

Bumping the wing keel rating that high or any rating shouldn't be done arbitrarily. You should collect data - we tried to do that 3 years back and I think 1 guy sent in his clubs racing results. Without solid data to make an informed decision covering a lot of races and racing conditions in many areas you would just be throwing the dart at the stock page. You also need to consider who is sailing those wing keels. You can't penalize the boat on account of the skipper. And no I'm not saying that all wing keelers can't race, but if you put me in a one design 35 with my regular crew and Russell Couts and Dennis Conner in a tarten ten and let them sail 10 races to determine handicaps the 1d35 would get a rating of 180 instead of 22 (just a guess). TheT-ten would be sitting as the scratch boat. Again you have to collect data.

The entire challenger series is also a good idea, but not really realistic. In a good year we get 20 boats to a national event and other than you not too many people make the long haul. I just don't see it happening.

Your base motives here are really good - just remember - gradual changes. Also fix the easy hits now and put a plan together for the larger changes. about 10 years ago the association had a big shakeup because the racers tried to do too much and turn the association on its ear. I think we need to take a lesson from that and go slowly.

I'm going to sit this thread out for a while now, I've been hitting it pretty hard and we need to get opinions from more than me.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/14/2007 : 07:12:43

I agree, Duane. A lot of people who have a sound understanding of racing rules have massaged our rules repeatedly in recent years, and I really think they've done a pretty good job. There might be a little room for a minor tweak or two, but I'd hate to see any major tinkering with them. What I'd rather see is for us to come back from this year's regatta and, if a rule didn't work the way we thought it should, then change just that rule, so that it won't be a problem at the next regatta.

Regarding the overall trophy, I think it's going to become more complicated than we thought. It was fairly easy to handicap all the boats against each other when all our boats were C25s, and all were racing in one start, but now that we have C250s and Capris, and we are having separate starts, it's beginning to get more complicated. If only one boat gets more bullets than any boat in any of the classes, then it's easy, but, what if two boats get 4 bullets each? We need to figure out how the overall winner is going to be determined. We can probably figure something out, but we really need to get the details worked out well in advance of the first regatta when it will be awarded.

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 04/14/2007 : 07:57:57

if the boats sail the same course different starts for an overall trophy doesn't matter. you still do a corrected overall time for the entire fleet.

It is done all the time for overall winners of regatta (JAM Fleets) etc

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aeckhart
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Response Posted - 04/29/2007 : 14:37:47

As I recall there were three serious racers in last years Nationals. They took the top places and all had sails other than dacron. We are classified as a racer-cruiser class boat. I submit to you that we are in actuality a cruiser class more than a racer class. A survey of last years Nationals participants would probably conclude that they are casual club racers with varrying success in their local races. None of them had anything but dacron sails and probably could not afford to buy new ones for the Nationals if they wanted to.

My point is this, if you want to tweek your boat to compete with boats other than Catalina 25's than we need to have a separate racing class for those boats at the Nationals as Bill suggests. Maybe call it a Catalina "sport" class or something else. As Duane points out, it is a tenousous business and has to be stricly regulated much as the one design (J24, Capri) race classes are. otherwise, keep it a cruising class to be competitive for the majority of cruiser-racers that will attend the Nationals. I have to say that a small part of my not attending the nationals this year is that my boat is in no way competitive with the top boats from last year, evedn with near new dacron sails and a few other non OEM items of equipment. Its getting expensive enough just to move a boat to the Nationals let alone having to worry about adding equipment to compete.

My two cents

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