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Jacklines

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/14/2007 : 19:56:27

Anybody have any pictures of installed jacklines on a 250? I want to install them on Kaija. My single biggest fear with regards to sailing is watching my boat sail away as I bob around in the middle of Lake Erie.

John Russell
1999 C250 SR/WK #410
Bay Village, Ohio
Sailing Lake Erie
Don't Postpone Joy!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2007 : 12:19:12

Wow! I'm surprised you haven't had a reply yet. It's probably because nobody has a photo of jacklines. I'm sorry to say that I don't have a photo either.

Jacklines are usually attached from the bow cleat to the stern cleat, and led aft alongside the stanchions on both sides of the boat. That's the way I run mine. By doing so, you can clip the tether (which is attached to your harness) to a jackline, and walk all the way from the cockpit to the bow to handle sail or other tasks, without unclipping from the jackline. They can be rigged down the centerline, which has some advantages, but that usually requires that you drill holes and install a strong attachment point somewhere in the cockpit, which many people would be reluctant to do.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2007 : 12:21:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Wow! I'm surprised you haven't had a reply yet. It's probably because nobody has a photo of jacklines. I'm sorry to say that I don't have a photo either.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Pick up a copy of Cruising World and try to find a photo of anyone using a PFD!

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2007 : 14:42:58

John, thanks for asking this. I have the same question. FYI, Practical Sailor did a series on harnesses and tethers. They like the West Marine Basic and Deluxe harnesses. They also liked the WM 6' tethers with the Wichard hook. If you can wait they stated that WM is going to release a new tether with a Kong Hook which may be better yet.

Steve, I wonder if your method will work on a C250 which has no side area between the cabin and rails.

Don, anyone who doesn't wear a harness and/or PFD in open water is a fool, IMHO.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 02/16/2007 14:43:46

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2007 : 15:16:20

1,000 miles offshore, a PFD without a lifeline would just prolong the agony. The story goes that the sailors at the time of Magellan, et al, never learned to swim so that if overboard, they'd drown quicker. In any event, it's unlikely that you'll see me alone on my boat without both.

Thanks for the tip about WM.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2007 : 05:48:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Steve, I wonder if your method will work on a C250 which has no side area between the cabin and rails.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The object is to keep the sailor attached to the boat. I'm not as familiar with the C250 as with my old C25, but don't see any reason why it wouldn't serve that purpose. Running it down the centerline is functionally a better way, but it has significant drawbacks. It requires installation of a new attachment point. It bisects your cockpit and is in the way.

My recollection is a little unclear, but I believe Arlyn runs his jacklines aft along the beam of the boat. If he joins the discussion, maybe he can clear it up.

Edited by - on

JohnMD
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2007 : 08:37:13

I attended ASA 103/104 a couple of weeks ago. The object of jack lines is to keep you ON the boat, not attached to the boat. They said that being dragged thru the water 10 miles from nowhere is a guaranteed way to drown. You probably won't be able to pull yourself back to the boat. With that in mind, I think having jack lines running down the center of the boat is the only proper method. It's in the book.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2007 : 09:34:04

John, in a course like that, they don't have the time to discuss all the possible "combinations and permutations" of circumstances. For example, a big, 15,000# boat is more capable of dragging an adult along with it than a small, 3,000# boat. The smaller boat will be slowed much more by the amount of drag, and it will be more likely to round up to windward, stopping it. It also matters whether you have an autopilot set. An AP will try to steer the boat to counteract the drag. With no AP, the boat will simply round up to windward and come to a stop, enabling the MOB to climb back aboard.

Some people wear two tethers, one of which is longer than another. Both will have quick-release clips. If you fall overboard, you can clip the longer one so that it will allow you to reach the boarding ladder, and either release or cut the short one with the knife attached to your harness or pfd, and re-board the boat. There are lots of ways to do it.

You're absolutely right that it's preferable to stay on the boat, but, falling off the boat is no guarantee that you're going to die. I was nearby when a boat capsized in breakers with two people aboard. Neither of them had a harness and tether. One was able to grasp a line in the water and pull himself aboard. The other could not, and died. If they had been wearing harnesses and tethers, both would have survived, even though both would have been thrown off the boat. I've seen a lot of boats with jacklines, and very few are rigged with them down the centerline for practical reasons that are important to the owners, but most have considered the possibility that they might fall overboard, and have planned some method by which they can deal with it. Each of us has to decide the specific way that we protect ourselves on our boats. If you don't stay attached to the boat, you're pretty much a goner when the boat sails away from you. It's even better if you stay on the boat.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2007 : 10:12:34

Yeah, I've read a bit about the length of tether and I'll opt for one that keeps me on the boat.

I wonder if there's a way to rig the autopilot to disengage in the event of singlehander MOB. (I don't have one yet) That way the boat will certainly round up when steering is lost. As I type that, I'm beginning to think that is really a possibility. Somebody could develop some kind of switch that requires the proximity of a RF signal that eminates from a transmitter on a PFD......Or, a simple kill switch tethered to the sailor? Any patent lawyers out there?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5895 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2007 : 10:44:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I wonder if there's a way to rig the autopilot to disengage in the event of singlehander MOB. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">There are all different types of AP systems with all different designs, and different ways of connecting them to the boat's steering system. Some probably lend themselves, more than others, to that sort of thing, depending on how they're designed. It would probably be much easier to rig some such device if the boat has tiller steering rather than wheel steering. I remember some recent discussion about the idea, but can't direct you to it.

Some outboard motors have a kill switch that you attach to yourself, and, if you go overboard, it kills the engine. You might be able to rig a similar device that will disengage your AP from the tiller. You could rig the trip line so that you could reach it along each side, even if you were overboard and being dragged in the water. I think a simple mechanical device would generally be easier to devise and more fail-safe than an electronic one on a boat, but a reliable electronic device would be a good thing.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2007 : 11:31:39

My jackline runs from the bow to the aft leg of the midship stanchion. These stanchions are double based stanchions and have fender washers on both bases and aren't coming loose.

One needs to accept that such a side run jack line does not prevent one from going overboard when using a six foot tether but it does keep one with the boat.

There is a view that if going overboard while single handing... your dead and I wouldn't argue that not to be a possibility but I refuse to accept that it is inevitable and nothing can be done especially on a boat like the 250 with an open transom and very easy to use swim ladder that allows easy climbing even if the user were tired and dripping wet because it has great hand holds on both sides of the ladder to allow use of arm muscles to assist the legs.

Getting to that ladder is then the challenge and as Steve outlined, a 15' tether is coiled and fixed to the harness that can be added to the six foot tether if over the side.

The single most important addition for me was the simplest... a 3' line on the mast with a snap shackle. All reefing chores are from a single position starboard of the boom near the mast... when arriving there, the short tether is added to the harness D ring leaving the six foot tether yet connected... it serves much the purpose of a center run jack line and eliminates the possibility of going over the side while hooked up.

I've done a lot of reefing in rough conditions with this system... I've never however had to go forward to deal with a headsail. If one is careful to keep tension on the furler line when running the sail out and one uses a jib sheet anti fouling line... there is little risk of something going wrong with the ability to manage the headsail from the cockpit.

I even added twings to simulate adjustable jib cars and was concerned that these and the lazy sheet would foul... they never have.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 02/17/2007 11:43:59

kevinmac
Admiral

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USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2007 : 13:02:06

Arlyn,

What are jib sheet anti-fouling lines?

Thanks,

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2007 : 17:11:31

Went to West Marine this afternoon. Can anybody explain why a 6 ft tether costs over $90? After all, it's 6 feet of webbing a carobiner and a clip. I guess they have to cover their liability insurance but, c'mon!

Edited by - on

johnsonp
Admiral

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USA
606 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2007 : 20:07:05

An important part of the tether setup is the Pelican hook which has a quick release mechanism which is used while you are dangling under the load of your body weight and you want to make a life saving move.

Edited by - on

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1314 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2007 : 22:09:35

Arlyn: Where on the bow do you attach the jackline(s)? Do you use webbing or line, what size do you recommend?
The solution of the 3ft mast extention while still attached seems effective.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2007 : 23:01:53

A problem sometimes with jib sheets is they foul on mast rigging... especially those halyard swivel turning blocks on early 250s.

An easy way to prevent fouls is to create an A frame from a piece of bungee that sheds the sheets away from the mast.

Mine is simple a couple of plastic sister clips made to a bungee. The clips are cleated to the stanchion eyes where the mast raising baby stays cleat to with the middle of the bungee secured to the mast about three feet above the deck. I simply run through the whisker pole eye but if no eye exist, an eye strap could be added to the mast.

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/antifouline.html"]jib sheet anti fouling line[/url]

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 02/17/2007 23:03:20

AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2007 : 23:03:13

Arlyn, I don't understand when you say:

"All reefing chores are from a single position starboard of the boom near the mast..."

I removed the reefing line from inside the boom and it now runs along the port side of the boom thru eye straps to a block at the gooseneck on the mast, up through the reef cringle, down to starboard blocks, then aft to the inboard starboard clutch. With the boom amidships I can reef and unreef completely from the cockpit. My lazy jacks are a great assist to reefing.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2007 : 23:16:01

Henk... Webbing is the preferred because it wont roll under the feet but we don't have sidedecks so the line is outside of the traffic pattern so I chose to kill two birds with one stone and use a line large enough to serve as a two bridle as well as jack line. If I recall it is a 5/8" braided nylon line.

I actually don't secure it at the bow...it is run forward of the stem fitting and runs back each side. The line was given a common overhand eye at the mid point that centers on the stem fitting so that if I need a tow... all I've to do is untie the line from the midship stanchions, take a turn around each stanchion and finish up at the coaming winches.

This will spread a towing load as well as allow releasing the tow without having to cut the line.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2007 : 23:22:54

Frank... remember my boat is a water ballast and is therefore a trailer sailor... not wanted is the added setup time and effort of running lines to the cockpit.

I've never found it a problem to do reefing chores from the cabin top... though they got a lot easier after loose footing the main, which created a great boom handrail.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2007 : 23:25:19

Steve...btw, how are you liking the new boat?

Edited by - on

AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2007 : 23:35:29

"... though they got a lot easier after loose footing the main, which created a great boom handrail."

Yeah, I also loose footed the main and on more than one occasion grabbing the boom kept me from tumbling down the hatchway stairs

Edited by - AADIVER on 02/17/2007 23:36:00

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2007 : 07:45:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart
 Steve...btw, how are you liking the new boat?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I love the boat and my retirement life aboard it on the Chesapeake during the summer! Rather than hijack this thread, I'll send you an email. There's a lot to tell, but I'll make it brief.

Edited by - on

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1314 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2007 : 14:55:52

Arlyn: Double function of a jackline, bridle and if required towing gear all in one sounds great!!

Sorry but

... still fail to visualize exactly how you run/fasten the lines (in/outside the forward stancheons). If possible could you provide a simple sketch... thanks

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2007 : 08:18:37

I'm checking out Defender for their jacklines and tethers. They sell the webbing by the foot and then they sell jacklines with either a loop or hook stitched on the end. How do you secure the end that doesn't have a loop or hook? Can the webbing be tied securely around a cleat? If it can be safely tied to a cleat, I was thinking maybe buying 50-60' of webbing, tie to the port stern cleat, take it forward around the bow pulpit, then back to the starboard stern cleat. Would this work fine?

Thanks,

Edited by - on

johnsonp
Admiral

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USA
606 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2007 : 13:31:15

John
I ran a 1" wide red webbing from the base of the mast, using a overlaping square knot, down the middle of the boat thru the sheet traveler block, using a small locking carabiner, then down to the lower part of the railing next to the engine using another locking carabiner.
I have one 3/8" line,I think,by 8' long with a fast gate carabiner and the most impotant part a Pelican hook.
I have another line 1/4" dia by 3 feet long with a prussic knot on one end and a pelican hook on the other end.
8'line....clip in carabiner to 1'webbing clip pelican hook to D rings
on PFD.
3'line.....tie prussic knot to 8' line and clip pelican hook to D rings on PFD.
To figure this setup out look up Prussic knot on internet.
Yes.... I'm an old mountian climber and to day the use accenders.
paulj C250WK #719

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2007 : 21:33:38

FYI, I got the new WM catalog and they now have the new tethers with the Kong clip. This is touted to be an excellent tether. A bit pricey at $110 but it is your life. WM having a 10% off all online purchases for teh next 12 hours so thjat gets the cost under $100.

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