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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Which one to buy and why

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/19/2006 : 18:55:09

I think that I want a Catalina 25. I currently have an O'Day Daysailer but it's just not enough boat for Lake Erie. I'm a novice sailor but, I learned to sail on Catalinas. I'm thinking about a 25 because I think it will be less expensive to store on a trailer over winter. Also, I can singlehand it and it isn't too big to be major project for an evening, after work sail. Since I don't want to spend an houror more (combined)or more rigging and de-rigging with each outing I'll find a slip for it in the summer . Since I'm not going to be taking it on and off the trailer often, I've been thinking about a fixed keel rather than a swinger. Trailering a wing keel will be easier than a fin, I assume, but, don't really know. Also, I'm not really interested in a project boat 'cuz I want to go sailing not sailboat fixing!! I think a swing keel is just one more thing that can need repair in an otherwise simple craft.

Can anyone give me pros and cons for the various keel types? I'll likely not be racing it. How much truck do I need to pull it short distances?

Any advice will be welcome either through the forum or at my e-mail

Regards,
John Russell

Edited by - John Russell on 11/20/2006 17:01:49

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2006 : 21:40:28

For your intended use... wet slipped, infrequently trailered, the fin keel sounds like a logical choice.

The swinger comes into it's own trailering and when sailing in shoal waters. There is some extra maintenance, mostly in salt water though. In freshwater you can go a fairly long time between maintenance cycles.

The wing keel also trailers well but you lose the shoal water 'curb feeler' of the swing. A wing keel does make a pretty good anchor if you do happen to run one into a mudflat. (one of the guys here found this out the hard way). The big advantage of the wing keel is easy launch/towing without the periodic maintenance issues of a swinger if you're in saltwater.

>"How much truck do I need to pull it short distances?"

To be 'legal' (best way to go) you will need a vehicle with a tow rating of 6,500 lbs or more. That said, some folks here have towed with less for short distances. The big danger is in maintaining control during emergency stops rather than the 'going' part.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3408 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2006 : 22:46:17

To add to the above, if draft is ever an issue where you sail (and probably not in Lake Erie...but maybe close to shore), then think of the fin, wing and swing as about 1 foot less draft needed between each of them. THe wing is a compromise between the two, it is fixed, no moving parts to be concerned with like with the swing keel and about 1 foot less draft than the fin keel.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 00:37:02

The towing is best with a 3/4 ton because of the brake size. The launching and retriving is an issue between the swing and wing and the fin. I launch both the fin and swing each season and you need less than 3 feet for the swing and over 5 feet for the fin on the launch ramp. Now if you can launch with a hoist or travel lift no difference except cost. The tall rig and the standard rig could also be an issue for raising and lowering once each season. Tall rig requires more careful planning than the standard. I do all my own maintenace for the TRSK I have sailed for over 27 seasons and it is part of trailer sailing or you just have a lot of funds for the boat. Try to catch a launch or a retrival at where you plan to use and it will be very interesting. Get to sail often.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 09:55:59

I've had my tall rig wing keel for 17 years and can think of only one drawback - upwind sailing capability. Wings are notorius for poor pointing ability, especially in light to medium air. They're a little better in heavy air. So, if you're into racing, get the fin. If you want to occasionally club race and cruise get the swinger or the wing. If you don't want the maintenance of the swing, get the wing. If you get a fin get a tall rig for racing. Either tall or standard is good for cruising.

My humble opinion

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 10:43:26

As an owner of a Swinger that is in excellent condition, I think you should look at all the C25's you come across that fit your budget range.
That said, if I was sailing lake Erie, I'd probably be inclined towards Fin keels, in large part because of launch facilities.
If I were looking to buy another swing keel, I'd take a very close look at all parts of the mechanism including the bolts, and buy it if it were the best deal.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 12:01:09

Welcome John... You're on the right track--my late wife and I moved up from an O'Day Daysailer II to a C-25 SR/FK. I liked that combination for Long Island Sound sailing (we didn't race her), and the C-25 was about the most boat we could fit into a slip in the town club. I also liked that it had an outboard auxiliary--I was leaning away from an engine and several holes in the bottom of the boat.

The wing draws just a couple of inches more more than the fully-raised swinger, so the two should be the same for launching and retrieving with a trailer. We stored our fin at a marina--no trailer--so either the mast stayed up or it was unstepped and stepped by the yard.

On the subject of tall vs. standard, racers would want a tall rig, but for a big lake like Erie, I think a non-racer and single-hander would prefer the standard--in part because it's less tender, and in part because the boom is a foot higher, meaning more room for a bimini (great add-on) and a lot less head-cracking. Also, the standard mast is considerably less unwieldy to step and unstep, but that can be just a twice-per-season issue.

Also, for a non-racer, a roller furler is fantastic! If we were just daysailing to nowhere in the evening, we'd often just pull out the genny and leave the cover on the main--the boat sails nicely that way, and to go in, you just pull the string. If you find a good C-25 without it, you can easily add it. You can also add some simple components to lead the main halyard back to the cockpit if it hasn't already been done. (Remember what BOAT stands for--Break Out Another Thousand!)

Finally, I recommend you edit out your e-mail address so the spammers' harvesting systems don't find it. People can e-mail you through your profile by clicking on your name in any post.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 12:58:01

John,

I got your email the other day...where do you plan on keeping her while in the water? The Club is running a number of specials in conjunction with the boat show.

Also, as I mentioned, you are more than welcome to come down and take a look at our boat to give yourself some sort of comparitive idea. (or make an offer)

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 17:11:02

Thanks guys, I'm learning everyday. I'll keep reading this forum and yes, Duane, I would like to look at your boat sometime. I was thinking of Whiskey Island, Rocky River or out in Lorain where my daughter's Sea Scout ship is laying. That really will be a dollar driven decision. The lowest $$/ft is likely to get the boat.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 17:25:45

As the owner of a wing, I'll second the opinion that they don't go upwind very well. With that said, it suits my needs very well, in that I like to take it trailering on vacation, otherwise it stays in a slip. I'll trailer it 1,000 miles one way with a half ton full size 4wd truck, and an overbuilt trailer, (which is the key). My next truck will be a 3/4 or one ton model.
I'll also agree that it's best to go sailing, not doing a project boat for two years.

Good luck John, and let us know what you find.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 18:30:58

Emerald Necklace in Rocky River is nice, a standard rig has no problem clearing the bridge (so I am told) We used to be at Whiskey Island. I am not sure what it is now but back then it was around 2700 to 2900 a season plus 400 storage for a 24.9999 foot dock with first come first serve electricity. The price kept going up every season; we started there 3 years before leaving at 22k. Both of our wive's raced out of Edgewater and Harvey's wife was actually a member. Long story short, after crunching the numbers it was a savings to join EYC with the break even point at 4 years. Plus you have the additional amenities.

Just give me a call and we can set something up to take a look.

Duane

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 19:33:48

Welcome John,

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 I'm thinking about a 25 because I think it will be less expensive to store on a trailer over winter...Since I'm not going to be taking it on and off the trailer often, I've been thinking about a fixed keel rather than a swinger...How much truck do I need to pull it short distances?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My two cents...From the sounds of it, your plan is to slip the boat for the season then tow it to a storage yard for the winter. If this is the case, you might want to explore the possiblity of buying a boat without a trailer and storing it in a boatyard over the winter. You may find that not only is this probably the most economical way to go, it may be the most convenient.

Right off the bat, around these parts, the inital cost of a trailerless boat is about half what one might pay for a trailered boat. In fact, I know a C25 owner who paid $3,000 for a boat then spent $4,000 on a trailer for it.

By going trailerless, you won't need a capable tow vehicle and all the cost associated with it, mainly fuel mileage if this vehicle is also going to be your daily driver. This means you don't have to trade in your 55 mpg Toyota Prius, or in my case a minivan, for a truck with enough oomph to pull a C25 that you'll only use twice a year to tow your boat.

Going without a trailer also means no trailer license plates, no trailer maintenance, no flat tires, no finding a suitable launch ramp, no launching and retrieving the boat, and everything else associated with owning a trailer, including where to store it when its not in use.

I currently have a cradled C25 FK (previous boat was trailered) that I store at a boatyard on Lake Erie for which I pay $1.65/sqft (times 200 = $330.00) for winter storage. For this price, they haul it, powerwash the bottom, store it, then launch it in the Spring.

So John, if you are only planning on trailering twice a year, once to launch and once to haulout, you may want to investigate a trailerless boat. They're cheaper to buy and cheaper to own.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 19:46:48

Hey Don, Do you have to buy your own cradle in that situation?
That 330 bucks you pay, including hauling and powerwashing seems like a really great deal, and a no brainer.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 20:05:27

Edited by - on

Chris Z
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 20:56:06

Okay, I guess I am doing pretty good with my route on storage, trailering, and mooring. My storage is my driveway $0.00(which is nice in the winter to do minor repairs or pulling off the wood for refinishing) trailering $0.00 (My Brother owns a C-250 and has offered to haul it or time to us it) Mooring at Pymatuning $100.00 (Quite cheap for a protected bay). This will also be a great starting place to get the feel for the baot and work out all of the kinks.

Edited by - on

bear_tm4
Navigator

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USA
143 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 21:53:12

HI, I have a Catalina 25 with a fin, I have to say that I love it, its a chore getting her in if you dont have a lift but on a big lake like erie that shouldnt be a problem. I like the way the fin frees up the cabin, thats a plus. I like the fin for stabilty, I sailed her in Kansas, Milford lake when I first got her, and the wind there can be a challange. I had a stub keel with a board before, and was nice sail but the fin, for me is the way to go, love the stability that it gives me. Despite the chore for getting in and out of the water when I have to move her. I strongly recomend fin especialy for where it sounds like your going to sail...cheers happy sailing. This is my rig.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 21:57:41

Hey, Barry...Nice boat!

With that trailer, I'm guessing you have to make very WIDE turns!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2006 : 22:05:06

For those of us who sail where everyone has a trailer and everyone is on the hard every winter, the look of a fin on a trailer is... what a boat ought to be. The annual bottom maintenance is also easier on a fin.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2006 : 08:00:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gloss
 Hey Don, Do you have to buy your own cradle in that situation?
That 330 bucks you pay, including hauling and powerwashing seems like a really great deal, and a no brainer.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You can also go with jack stands. We have our own set, however many places tack 75 bucks onto storage fees. Most storage around here for our boat is about 400....2 bucks per square foot calculated beam times loa. 475 a season is way more reasonable than a tow vehicle, trailer, plates, brakes etc....If you don't want to tow to other locations.

One other thought - Is Bay Village going to allow you to keep the boat in the driveway?

Edited by - Champipple on 11/21/2006 08:02:34

dblitz
Navigator

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240 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2006 : 08:50:35

I bought my fin keel after owning a 22' Oday shoal keel model and boy is the Catalina a stable boat. Even when moored it so much more stable, you can actually read a book, while you wait for the wind to come up without getting seasick. The Oday pitched so much that all you could do was hold on.
Built a cradle for it a few weeks ago for about
$ 600.- that can be taken apart and hauled in a minivan which worked great.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2006 : 10:01:59

I found a zoning code violation citation on my door yesterday.

I really don't understand why! So after 3 winters in the driveway I will extend my driveway along the side of my house and move the boat 30' back so it will sit along the side of my house. That will cost some time and effort, anyone want to frame a parking pad over Thanksgiving break? Bring your own hammer and shovel.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2006 : 10:08:50

Any new people (specifically stink boaters) move into the neighborhood Frank? Most of the time a new neighbor dropping the dime or a new eager zoning inspector are what cause that; especially after going 3 years without a problem.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2006 : 10:48:51

I'm still learning. Yeah, Bay Village is one of those towns that will not allow a boat in the front yard although I'm told there discussion in the council but we'll see..... My drive is on the side of the house but is clearly visible to the corner of the street. I pull the Daysailer to the back yard but my neighbors still complain. "It's not neat whatever that means.

The talk of trailerless makes sense. In practical terms, I probably will NOT take it to exotic locations to sail. I like my current truck and the Admiral will raise an eyebrow over buying a bigger one. So, does that mean I really want a C27???????? No, I think I still want a 25 because what I'm really looking for is something that I can sail on an impulse after work, etc. I have seen a lot more boats listed without a trailer but WITH a cradle.

Now, another problem if I buy a boat in Missouri, how to get it to Lake Erie. I guess I could sail it home from somewhere on Lake Erie. How's that for ambitious talk from a novice sailor. Detroit to Cleveland........... I guess it would give me lots of chances to practice stuff like running away from a notorious Lake Erie storm.

Again, thanks for the advice.

John

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1889 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2006 : 10:57:41

<center>Zoning Hassles</center>
I went through this a few years ago. Was in the process of replacing the undercarriage of my trailer (with C-25 still on it) and reconditioning my swing keel. Trailer (w/&w/o boat) had been in my driveway for years without a problem.
<ul><li>Got a zoning notice for no tag on trailer (which was backed in). Tag had been in my way while scooting around under the trailer on a creeper. I put the tag back on it.</li>
<li>Got a 2nd zoning notice for no current sticker on tag. I stuck the current decal, which I already had, on the trailer tag.</li>
<li>Got a 3rd zoning notice for "abandoned or junk vehicle on property' (they wanted to see wheels under the trailer). I took a day off work and finished installing the new undercarriage.</li>
<li>While negotiating all these with the zoning enforcement guy, I asked him what violation I could expect to be cited for next. He said my rig looked a little long. Huh? Turns out there was a length limit ordinance, regardless of lot size or location of vehicle on property (unless inside a permanent building). It was 26' max. length overall, including unstepped mast, VHF antenna, trailer tongue, rudder, tilted outboard, even the truck if the hitch was connected!</li>
<li>That put me over the edge. To make a very long story shorter, the law got changed, and I now serve on a city commission advisory board. Now city residents can park anything they've got room for on their private property for as long as they like. Large vehicles (such as guest RVs) can now even overhang the legal boundries for a few days without being in voilation.</li></ul>
So don't overlook this potential problem, don't dispair if it rears its ugly head, and don't assume the solution is either simple or logical.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2006 : 11:01:26

Detroit to Cleveland isn't that bad of a trip, plus you get to stop at the Islands...

You can always flatbead a boat on a cradle, but that would cut into your available fundage.

Duane

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2006 : 11:53:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 I currently have a cradled C25 FK (previous boat was trailered) that I store at a boatyard on Lake Erie for which I pay $1.65/sqft (times 200 = $330.00) for winter storage. For this price, they haul it, powerwash the bottom, store it, then launch it in the Spring.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Wow!

After years of trailer-storing a Daysailer and home, and then scheduling and delivering the C-25 10 miles to and from a marina for storage, I moved to a place where a phone call to the marina could have the boat magically go from its slip to jack-stands, or from the stands back to the slip. Not quite priceless, but awfully nice!

If you're leaning this way, you probably should look at the C-27, just so you won't second-guess yourself. It's beamier and has better headroom, but most have gas inboards, which is an advantage to some and a disadvantage to others. Handling-wise, they're not that different. Oddly, to me, the newer C-28 seems much bigger than the 27.

Edited by - on

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