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Rounding up - is it my sail? - part II

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britinusa
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Initially Posted - 09/04/2006 : 19:41:59

We took JD out this weekend with the intent of practicing sail balance, here's the review.

Recognized problem: Stern low bow high!
When we launched the boat and both of us ashore, the lowest part of the bow was about 3" out of the water for about (ie. the hull didn't touch the water for about two feet back from the lowest part of the bow.)
After filling the water tanks (original and the new 26gal flexi tank in the bow) and filling the water ballast, the boat was on much better lines, almost level with just the admiral on board (going by the blue waterline on the hull.) That was with the generator stored on the port catbird seat and a 5 & 2 gallon spare fuel tanks on the port side next to the fuel locker and all cockpit seat cushions in their correct place.

Day 1 we sailed with full 110 jib but double main reefs. The balance was incredible, we could steer with finger tips on the wheel, hardly moving the wheel to keep a straight line course. Oh Joy!

Day 2 we sailed with 1 reef and the weather helm increased significantly, and removing that last reef it increased again.

We were able to get higher speeds in similar winds and seas than previously, but sadly Jessie's Sea Treker with his 130 jib blew past us probably at least a knot faster.

So my conclusions are pretty much the same, the 110jib is too small for the full main (unless others would differ :)

I'll ask all the kids to combine birthday, christmas, anniversary gifts for the next 5 years and club together and get us a nice new 130 from Ullman sails :)

(If you say you want, you won't get, but if you don't ask, you don't want!)

Paul.

Joint Decision. (Sold)
PO C250WB 2005 Sail # 841.

Moved up to C34 Eximius

Updated August 2015

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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Response Posted - 09/05/2006 : 11:41:38

Paul, On "Brandy" C250 WB the water line is about level at the dock,
nothing extra added as far as weight in the bow etc. With the double reef in and the 110 genny out all the way "Its Miller Time" very well balanced boat when sailing in heavier wind in that configuration. I am not an expert in heavy sailing, but I am very comfortable with those settings.

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aeckhart
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Response Posted - 09/09/2006 : 06:21:13

Boat power comes from the main. When over-powered and experiencing strong weather helm there are several steps to depower the main, maintain control, keep the main full and speed up. In essence the more weather helm, the more rudder is required to control the boat, the more drag and loss of speed, and ultimately loss of rudder control - rounding up.

(1) Release main sheet tension by easing the main sheet traveler. This opens the leach and allows air to spill, keeping the boat upright.

(2). As weather helm increases flatten the main by tensioning the outhaul (if you have a block and tackle system), the vang, and the cunningham. This depowers the main by ellimoiniating the pocket in the forward part of the main.

(3). With increasing weather helm, add the first reef. You will most likely be able to continue with a full genoa.

(4). With increasing weather helm, add the second reef and reduce genoa size.

This is all done based on how the boat is responding to wind conditions, not neccesarily because of the conditions. The stock boat does not come adequatly equipped to control increasing weather helm. But then, the average day sailor would be heading home as these conditions evolve. If you are a serious cruiser or racer, you need to add an outhaul on the main, a cunningham led to the cockpit, and either a topping lift or rigid boom vang (for safety and ease of reefing). I prefer the rigid vang after having both on by C25.

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 09/09/2006 : 07:01:31

Bear, I totally agree with your assesment. When double reefed main and full 110 jib, and the boat on an even keel, the balance is bliss. If it were not for the slack in the wheel system, the wheel could almost be tamed.

Al, your assesment matches ours too, we just don't have a genoa, just the 110 jib. So we really have to keep in the 2nd main reef which clearly affects our speed in even moderate winds. We'll just have to save up our coupons for a 150

Paul

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aeckhart
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Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 09:01:52

Paul,

Before you spend the money on a 150, ask the other C250 owners how they feel about a sail that size. Many C25 owners, inlcuding me, were much happier with a 135. I had my 150 cut down when I added roller furling two years ago.

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Frank Hopper
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Pitcairn Island
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Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 09:25:23

I use a 135 and jump to a drifter in light stuff.

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frog0911
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Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 13:22:39

Paul, I would not put a 150 on a C250. Much to much sail for a flat bottom boat. When we ordered PennyII I asked for a 150, but Catalina only offer the 135 as the biggest head sail so that is what we have. When I asked why, I was told that the boat design would not accept a 150 well because of balance issues and rudder control. I am glad I did not get it now after sailing with the 135. Like Frank, I use the 135 all the time with winds above 5k and the drifter goes up if the wind is less.

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kevinmac
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Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 15:01:25

The winds where I sail in the summer are 15 to 20 most of the time, sometimes more. I have a 135. I spend most of my time dealing with being overpowered, even with one reef in. I frequently have to reel in the 135 down to about a 100 or maybe less. I can't imagine a 150 being a good thing in any amount of wind above 5 knots. I'm not an expert, just my two cents. And I have a wing keel, so maybe that makes a difference too.

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aeckhart
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Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 18:29:48

I kind of thought this would be the case. i never liked my 150 from the first time I used it. I ended up sailing with my 110 unitl I added roller furling, then had the 150 cut down to a 135. A much better sailing option in winds 5-10 or 12 mph. I was out racing in 10 to 15 with gusts to 20 mph on Weds. One reef in the main and genoa furled to about a 100 or 80. The boat almost sailed itself.

Sailed in our club championship last Sunday with winds less than 5 mph and took fifth with the 135. It is the correct size genny, in my opinion, to move the C25 in light air and would be more than adequate for the C250 since it is a lighter boat.

Edited by - aeckhart on 09/12/2006 18:30:45

britinusa
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Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 19:46:32

Frog, any pics of a drifter on a C250 (or should I be asking Frank :)
Curious about size & shape.

paul

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frog0911
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Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 22:45:27

The drifter is around a 155 headsail , but cut with more draft. If you go to Arlyn's web page/mods/sail management. He has a great picture flying his Lone Star drifter. Mines not as fancy as Aryln's, but it still very functional. I have a picture flying it in the Mug Race this year with a reefed main on a reach. I will post it when I find it and load to shutterfly. It wasn't to long after the picture was taken when the winds piped up more and it went in the forward hatch and the 135 came out.

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Buzz Maring
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Response Posted - 09/13/2006 : 07:00:53

Hi Jerry,

That looks like Pretty Penny I in your signature block ...

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frog0911
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Response Posted - 09/13/2006 : 09:07:40

You are correct. I think I selected the wrong picture when I had to update my URL after shutterfly changed it ident string. Will have to fix that.

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frog0911
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Response Posted - 09/13/2006 : 09:37:14

Paul, here are two pictures of PennyII in this years Mug Race. The first is with the drifter on a reach with full main. Thought I had one with reefed main and drifter, but could not find it. The second is after the winds came up and I went from reefed main/drifter to reefed main/135.

My sail plan changes based on heel angle when racing. With 15 degrees being optimum and 20 as a max. In other words as the winds increase the heel angle increases. So if I cannot hold a steady 15 I will let it go to 20 once at a steady 20 or puffs over I will reef the main and continue until the same heel limits are reached. Then reef the jib to 110. Then the same procedure until I have to reef the jib again. If that ever happens the sails come down and its home. The balance plan for me is 15 and that goes hand in hand with max speed also. In the Mug with reefed main and full jib, crew of two, we were going a steady 5.5 knots with 15-18 degrees of heel. Now with the General aboard the heel must never be over 15 and the prefered is 10. So the reefing changes as the those limits are met. The angles of 10 and 15 provide a much more relaxing ride with minimum effort, but not necessarily the max speed.

Edited by - frog0911 on 09/13/2006 09:39:10

britinusa
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Response Posted - 09/13/2006 : 12:51:53

Thanks Frog,
So the drifter is a loose luff sail. Is the clew attached directly to the bow plate (as is the CDI furler) or do you have a lanyard from the clew to the bow plate? And I guess you need a second winch set aft of the cabin rather than use the set atop the cabin? (or do you just use a jamb cleat?

Paul.

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 09/13/2006 : 19:29:11

Paul, I haul my drifter to the top with the jib halyard and never ajust the halyard. Luff adjustment is done via a tack line through a block at the stem leading back to cockpit.

If not using a dousing sock, when making up the tack line... make it long enough so that the helmsperson can uncleat and feed slack until the deck hand has brought the tack back to the mast. He can then gather the tack to the clew cringle and start stuffing the foot of the sail into the bag as the halyard is eased.

The tack line should have a stopper knot that prevents the tack from being drawn out of the stem block any further than allowing the tack to be stuffed into the sail bag. This will prevent the drifter from getting away and flying from the mast head... a real sight

Don't ask how I know this can happen.

It is best to rig a method of securing the bag near the mast so that both hands are free to the deck hand for stuffing. I've provided little canvas twist cleats on the port side of the mast and the slots in the bag for doing this as the jib halyard on my boat is at the port mast.

If.... the wind pipes up so that the drifter needs to be gotten down, it is far easier to do so in the lee of the main by sailing off on a starboard broad reach or run.

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frog0911
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Response Posted - 09/14/2006 : 07:34:43

Like Aryln I use a tack line that is lead back to the cockpit. Since I have a Snapfurl, I had to add a haylard for the drifter which is lead back to the cockpit on the starboard side to a clutch. The sheets are lead to small swivel blocks attached to the stantions to the right and left of the cabin mounted winches. The sheets are drawn in by hand then two wraps on the winch and locked in the self tailer. I fly my drifter forward of the furler and release the tack line to fly out the bottom of the sail when jibbing or tacking. This allows the sail to easily be move from one side to the other without getting snagged on anything. Two pictures show the tack line routing.

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 09/16/2006 : 07:53:54

Great explainations guys, thank you.
From what I'm seeing the slack sheet must go foreward around the jib furler, is that correct?

paul

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 09/16/2006 : 12:08:28

It depends on the furler.

With the CDI furler, the jib halyard is used and the drifter is tacked as a genoa.

The Shaeffer furler uses the jib halyard as well as interfers with the drifter tacking as a genoa because of the eye strap needed forward near the mast head. Consequently, it requires the addition of a spinnaker halyard and is tacked forward around the furler like an asymmetrical.

The placement of the tack block is also different. Where Frog has his on the pulpit forward of the stem, with the CDI it will be at the most aft stem hole, aft of the furler as seen in this pic.

It should be noted as well, that if using the forward scheme required of the Shaeffer, it may be required on some 250s to move the bow nav light so that it doesn't chaff the drifter, foul the tack line or possibly get hidden by it. Compare Frog's light to mine and what I'm saying will be evident. The light location was changed at some point, likely because it fouled when fitted with an asymmetrical spinnaker.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 09/16/2006 12:34:05

britinusa
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Response Posted - 09/17/2006 : 06:34:45

Arlyn, thanks, great pictuer (1000 words)
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">.... the wind pipes up so that the drifter needs to be gotten down, it is far easier to do so in the lee of the main by sailing off on a starboard broad reach or run.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I was curious why you said that.
In your picture the furler line interferes with the drifter tack line when on a starboard tack.
Paul.

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 09/17/2006 : 08:01:38

I'd noted that too... but seems to be no issue. The furler line of course is never used while the drifter is flying.

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 09/17/2006 : 09:06:53

Arlyn.. so why on Starboard tack?

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 09/17/2006 : 10:31:23

Mostly because the jib halyard is on port so that is where the bag is convenient for stuffing and easing the halyard at the same time. Going to a starboard tack broad reach or run puts handling the drifter in the lee of and wind shadow of the main.

The drifter is a very light sail and is either easy to manage or difficult. If it is handled in a wind shadow, its easy. If in a windstream, its tough. It is not a sail that can just be gotten on the deck in a bundle and then dealt with because it is very slippery to step on so keeping it off the deck is a priority, which leaves either socking it or stuffing as it comes down.

In the pic below, note the mounting of the bag to the boom by canvas twist locks in a way that provides for an open bag for stuffing with one hand while the other hand is free to ease the halyard. The sail comes down the back side and shadow of the main.

Also, I leave the tack line and sheets attached to the sail and as the tack and clew go into the bag first, the lines simply lay to the side in the bag until all of the sail is within and the lines are then coiled and stuffed into the bag last. When setting the sail, the lines are pulled out and routed prior to hauling the sail aloft.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 09/17/2006 10:41:41

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