Association Forum - Differences.. Mark I (77-81?) vs Mark II (81-84?)

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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Differences.. Mark I (77-81?) vs Mark II (81-84?)

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/26/2006 : 10:12:06

I've always been curious about exactly what changes were made from the first production model (aka Mark I) to the second (aka Mark II ca 1982?). IMHO: Some fairly significant changes are evident, especially in the swing keel boats.

Mark I swing keel boats sit several inches bow down with the keel lowered and an empty cockpit. They sit level on their marks with the keel up.

Mark II swing keel boats sit level with the keel down, and slightly stern down with the keel up.

Obviously weight distribution and/or hull form had to change to make that much difference. Observations on how my boat reacts to weight in the cockpit put this equivalent to about 150 lbs aft at the transom. (i.e. about 150 lbs at the transom makes the boat sit level with the keel down)

I have heard (or more likely read) somewhere that there was a hull form 'tweaking' that took place but haven't seen it formally documented anywhere.

Supporting this notion, there are comments floating around that the early Mark I models were slightly faster than the later Mark II. I've seen this attributed to 'lighter construction in the Mark I', but I don't see much in the way of 'light' construction in my '77, the hull is built like a brick #@ithouse.

Also, historically speaking, most production sailboats of that era started out overbuilt (conservative) and became lighter through the production runs as the factory eliminated fiberglass that turned out to be unnecessary.

Another possibility is that the keel pivot was relocated aft in the later model... but this would also have included a hull change as the keel trunk would have needed relocation too.

The third possibility is that the swing keel itself was made heavier at the lower end. With the 45 degree aft angle of the keel when lowered, this would make the boat sit lower astern and would also cover the 'C25 got heavier' remarks.

Back in the late 70's and through the 80's C25's were raced a lot and were considered pretty fast boats. If there was a hull form or weight distribution change, I'd think it likely was 'noticed' at the time.

Are there any old time racers out there or Catalina historians who have info or comments on this? (Jim Sweet?)

Side note/postscript:

I had the pleasure of having lunch with C25 member Jim Sweet (SV SweetCraft) earlier this summer. I found him to be a 'scholar and a gentleman'. I think Jim is a serious contender for the title 'Person who has owned a C25 the longest' as he purchased his C25 brand new back in 78(?) and has sailed her ever since.

Jim is literally a living encyclopedia about sailing back in the 'glory days'. I'm hoping he's writing his memories down as it's an interesting history of those times. (he assured me that he was)

WOTAM - '77 Catalina 25 SK/SR Sail Number 158

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/26/2006 : 10:54:16

Bill Holcomb is probably another good source--he was a Catalina dealer and is a long-time C-25 owner who seems to know what Frank Butler was up to... Bill???

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sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 08/27/2006 : 23:28:22

Bruce thanks for all the credits and I hope we get to sail together. Yes the 79 sets low at the bow and has done well in the early years racing. The boat is really built as I have seen over time and I have modified the interior to keep up with the new changes as the years go by, the boat has been raced with all sails from day one and we did well. The set backs came as we raced on lakes where the standard rigs said they would protest if we entered their race with our tall rig and we had to race handicap.
The articles by Bill Holcomb were much enjoyed and were used to correct or modify the 79. We sailed very well with crew weight forward with less wetted surface. Have seen modified keels and other attempts to stretch the rules but we did well as a Mom and Pop rig and kept all the comforts aboard.
I will continue to share what ever I can to help where ever possible to make the newbies welcome and able to enjoy the sailing as much as I do.
Bill give us the history to best understand our boats for even more enjoyment. Is there really a change in the shape of the swing keels? (by the factory)

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Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2006 : 08:16:06

My '83 swing keel sits bow down with the keel down. She also lists to port, despite the engine on the starboard side. I guess that's because I never put any water in the starboard tank.

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2006 : 11:51:59

Our '81 SR/SK #2502 sit bow down with the keel down.
OB on starboard does not appear to cause the boat to list.

LaBarca is balanced with one person in the cockpit, and easily balanced with second person in the cockpit by moving some gear forward.
In our first year racing, we are now consistently winning races, even with wonky old sails. Credit goes to the new bottom job and the terrific info gathered here.

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.