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Mast raising questions

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Capt. Kurt
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185 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/30/2005 : 11:48:54

I am going to attempt to lower / raise my mast for the first time and I have a couple questions.

My boat did not come with what the manual refers to as "mast raising short shrouds" or the "mast webbing strap". See below.

Can I subsitite 3/4 in line to accomplish this task, or do I need to purchase these parts from catalina? What are the shrouds made of, and were do they attach to the mast?

Thanks,
Kurt

#818 C250WK 'Tortuga'

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/30/2005 : 12:12:03

Kurt,
My mast raising shrouds are made of SS wire just as the shrouds. They have "T" toggles on one end (just like the upper and lower shrouds have where they afix to the mast) and the "T" goes in the mast slots just about eye height on each side the mast (when your standing on the deck). The other ends have a pelican hook, like on your lifelines in the cockpit. That end goes around the welded loops on the deck stanchions on both sides just forward of the mast. You will find one is a little longer than the other. You may be able to have a place like West Marine make you a set. The mast strap can easily be made up with a strong rope. One thing I do different is, I tie the main halyard to the strap, I don't use the shackle, it scratches the mast. Make sure you use the extra piece of rope they call for between the mast strap and the trailer strap (if your using the trailer strap) so it will be long enough to lower the mast ALL the way down. The trailer strap alone is not long enough to do that.

Edited by - Tom Potter on 12/30/2005 12:16:03

Turk
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Response Posted - 12/30/2005 : 17:58:02

I would definitely purchase the baby shrouds. They make things very secure and stable, I would hate to loose one side support as the mast goes up. You tend to do this thing yourself cause it makes it so easy I would hate for you to have a false sense of security and one of your bowlines lets loose!

Edited by - on

johnsonp
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Response Posted - 12/31/2005 : 00:23:09

The price Catalina charges for SS baby stays is hard to beat.
Try pricing it out at West Marine catalog.....or call Catalina Direct for a price. That's what I did......

I broke a main stay sailing one day and used the baby stays as a backup. They work just fine till I could make it to the dock for repairs.

I made the following parts.......
The 3/8 Dacron line, which I had lying around, with bolines on each end is 6 feet long total.
The 1 inch webbing, from REI, is 12 inches long.

paulj C250wk #719

Edited by - on

kevinmac
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Response Posted - 01/01/2006 : 01:48:28

A couple of weeks ago, we raised and lowered the mast on my new 250. The factory forgot to send the mast raising kit, so we did not have the support that goes in the rudder gudgeons (on a tiller steered boat), the baby stays, or the strap that goes around the mast.

*IF YOU HAVE TWO PEOPLE*, you can use some extra line to do the same thing as the catalina parts to make up for the winch strap not being long enough. You can use one of the people to steady the mast as it goes up, and the other to crank the winch. It was not difficult.

But I still would order the kit, it makes it a one person operation I am told.

Edited by - on

Capt. Kurt
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Response Posted - 01/04/2006 : 22:12:31

Thanks guys, I priced it out from Catalina and the baby stays are only $77. I will probably be raising solo on occasion so it will probably come in handy.

By the way, anyone know how much the mast weighs? I'm wondering how much load is going to be on the winch when I raise/lower it.

Thanks,
Kurt

#818 C250WK 'Tortuga'

Edited by - on

johnsonp
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Response Posted - 01/05/2006 : 15:21:47

Baby stays 2x77=154.00

paulj C250 wk #719

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Keith D.
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Response Posted - 01/05/2006 : 20:46:27

Paul I hope you didn't pay the for the baby stays. Catalina said that was for a set and they only sold them in sets. Maybe things change with which person you see. The webbing strap was $22.00 Catalina part #80564. A rope could be substituted for the strap

Edited by - on

Capt. Kurt
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Response Posted - 01/06/2006 : 16:22:49

Is there a reason why is one baby stay longer than the other?

Also, it seems there would be improved mechanical advantage by using the jib (or drifter) halyard tied to the winch strap instead of 1/2 down the mast as manual states. Has anyone tried this before or is the jib halyard to small a line to carry the load?

Tom, thanks for the tip on tying off the halyard to prevent scratching the mast!

Kurt
#818 C250WK 'Tortuga'

Edited by - on

johnsonp
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Response Posted - 01/06/2006 : 17:11:40

I paid 145.00 two years ago and I picked them up at the factory in the LA area.
If the mast is in the upright position when you attach the baby stays, you will see why or how the babys stays are different lengths.
Leave some slack in each cable,about 1" midspan deflection.
Lossen the tabernackle bolt just a bit.
You will also see why the length of rope is............
The cross arms get in the way when you thry to get the strap on the mast higher.
If you do the math putting he stap higher on the mast does not increase the mechanical advantage that much.
If you want to increase the M/A make the mast raising pole on the trailer higher than existing max.

paulj C250 wk #719

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
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Response Posted - 01/06/2006 : 20:31:57

Kurt,
The reason one of the baby shrouds is longer than the other.
Check the placement of the aft Mast Carrier. On my 250-WB(#793) there are 2 sets of holders (Gudgeons?).
The Rudder fits into the Center set and the Mast Carrier fits into the Port set (I can post pictures).
The longer baby shroud fits on the starboard side, and the shorter baby shroud fits on the port side.
If the they were the same size, the mast would be lowered in the center.
I never realized they were different lengths, but it does explain why sometimes the mast lowers exactly on the holders and other times I had to lift it on the holder.
Thanks Tom, I will label my baby shrouds.

Correction: I double-checked and my baby shrouds are the same size, but
the pelican hook is threaded 1.5 inches (81" min to 82.5" max).

Edited by - Russ.Johnson on 01/07/2006 01:06:24

Russ.Johnson
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Response Posted - 01/06/2006 : 20:45:15

Kurt,
Your other question about the halyard placement.
I always use the main halyard the way the diagram shows.
I have never tried to attach the jib halyard directly to the trailer winch strap.
I agree with Paul, the spreader and lower shrouds limit the height the webbing strap can be raised, but the trailer winch handles the load just fine.
The most important thing is to have both the bow and stern mast holders extended to full height.
The dozen times I've raised/lowered everything was fine.
Thanks for posting the diagram, it make for an easier reply.

Edited by - Russ.Johnson on 01/07/2006 00:58:10

Keith D.
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Response Posted - 01/06/2006 : 21:29:00

Russ, interesting you have two sets of gudgeons. Could you post a picture of them? I have an older 250 WB and it only has one set gudgeons. If I have the mast holder in then I have to have the rudder out. Also this would explain why my baby stays are the same length. I have used both the Jib halyard and the strap and have found no noticeable difference on the winch. I am using a boat based system with a gin pole and a winch mounted to that.

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
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Response Posted - 01/07/2006 : 01:18:08

Keith,
Your reply made me think and I edited my two previous replies.
I got the "webbing strap" and "winch strap" mixed up.

My baby shrouds are also the same length but are adjustable.
I think that's Tom means. Anyway, I'm going to adjust and label them.

About the gudgeons:
Reading other posts, things have changed over the years.
I have an '04 250-WB (#793) and the bow mast holder is on the trailer.

See the hyperlink to the photo.
I have a wheel installed and the rudder removed.
The stern mast holder is attached to the port gudgeons.
The port gudgeons are 5 inches from the rudder gudgeons.
Notice, the fuel locker vent is on the port side behind the mast holder (on earlier years the vent was on the starboard).
I couldn't get the photo to post, but the hyperlink works.
Sorry, I'm a newbie (yes, I read the testing forum, but it's a Comcast thing).
http://www.snapfish.com/viewsharedphoto/p=98161136615827129/l=75299753/cobrandOid=1000131/otsc=SYE/otsi=SPIC

Edited by - Russ.Johnson on 01/07/2006 02:03:10

johnsonp
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Response Posted - 01/07/2006 : 01:30:55

That size of SS pelicans are $25 each in the jippo magazines.....

paulj C250 #719

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
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Response Posted - 01/07/2006 : 10:08:54

I might have something to do with me having a Tall Rig, but I just pulled my manual out and went to the mast raising section. Here's the dimensions of my shrouds and line.

Starboard short shroud 73.5"
Port short shroud 79"
3/8" Dacron line with loops tied on each end 10' (12'overall length of line without loops)

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 01/07/2006 : 12:37:12

Definitely use the baby stays!

We raise JD's mast every trip (The marina is 90mins away) so we have plenty of experience raising and lowering the mast. After preping JD for 9 trips now, it's now no big deal at all.

We use the jib halyard (unused as we have the cdi furler) to attach to the winch strap that is fed over the roller at the top of the mast raising pole on the trailer.
The reason for using the jib halyard for us is simple, when the mast is up, the extra bit of forward tension placed at the top of the mast makes it a breeze to attach the furler shackle to the bow plate.
We use the furler line to keep the furler onboard (prevent it slipping overboard) while raising the mast.

Normally I prep the mast and rigging and Peggy handles the winch, it's now quite a team sport. We have preping the boat at the Sail boat prep area down to about 1 hour from arrival. That includes having the boom attached and the running rigging in place.

Practice teaches a lot!

Edited by - on

mday
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Response Posted - 01/08/2006 : 01:24:20

Kurt,

I believe I have the baby stays and mast webbing strap .... somewhere down below .... assuming they're the same for the WK as the WB and I would be more than willing to loan them out for a mast lowering adventure. Contact me via email if you want to try this.

Max

Edited by - on

Capt. Kurt
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Response Posted - 01/08/2006 : 09:07:54

Thanks Max, I placed the order for both last week not sure when they will get here. I will do a test run in Feb sometime, I will give you a shout to see if your available to supervise Tortuga's first mast lowering/raising.

Kurt
#818 C250WK 'Tortuga'

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Capt. Kurt
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185 Posts

Response Posted - 01/09/2006 : 21:47:24

The baby stays arrived today but they are exactly the same length however... is that a problem? They are both 81" long. They also was a rubber grommet with each stay, what are they for?

Thanks!
Kurt
#818 C250WK 'Tortuga'

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johnsonp
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Response Posted - 01/09/2006 : 22:56:31

Put the t-bolts in the mast, then install rubber gromets above so the t-bolts do not come out.
paulj C250 wk #719

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Russ.Johnson
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Response Posted - 01/10/2006 : 00:04:33

Kurt,
My baby shrouds are also the same length.
The pelican hook is threaded 1.5", so the range is 81" min to 82.5" max.
This works fine for my '04 C250WB (see my note above).
On the Tall Rig, the baby shrouds are longer and different lengths (see Tom's note above).
Also, the owner's manual has the shroud length listed (see Tom's note above).
Russ (#793)

Edited by - Russ.Johnson on 01/10/2006 00:06:11

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 01/10/2006 : 08:24:18

Boats shipped with a beaching rudder and wheel steering will have an offset set of gudgeons for the mast carrier. They allowed using the mast carrier without unshipping the rudder.

These may have been on other configurations as well. As mentioned, they require adjusting the two temporary stays to different lengths so as to pull the mast slightly to port so that it would align with the offset carrier.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 01/10/2006 08:27:33

britinusa
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Response Posted - 01/10/2006 : 09:15:15

Are the rubber grommets the same as the ones holding in the lower stays? Or are they doughnut type grommets?

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Capt. Kurt
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Response Posted - 01/10/2006 : 13:46:52

Thanks for the explanation that makes sense now. Since I've never had the mast lowered, so I havent inspected how the lowers were secured to the mast as a point of reference. They are black circular plug looking things, and now that I know what their for I can see that they would work well to hold the shroud in place!

Thanks everyone for taking the guesswork out of this task!

Much obliged
Kurt

#818 C250WK 'Tortuga'

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bear
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Response Posted - 01/10/2006 : 19:35:37

During mast raising last spring, just as the mast was almost verticle
the starboard lower shroud fell to the deck. We continued with the process and found pieces of the grommet on the deck. One of my capable first mate was tall enough on my eight foot ladder to put the
shroud back in. When I lowered the mast this fall the grommet on the port shroud was very much deteriorated. This is a 95 WB that is covered six months out of the year. Catalina provided two new grommets at no charge. If any one wants the P/N I can go look it up.

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