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Hole in keel trunk repair/homemade trailer

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jlguthri
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/14/2005 : 20:43:30

I've decided to chronicle my repair (or attempted repair) of my crack in my keel trunk. I'm putting it here

http://westmouthbay.com/?p=37

I've also posted my attempt to make a homemade trailer on another list... I only mention it because my trip to get the boat pulled last week ended with me broke down only yards from my dock. I had trash in my carburetor.

http://westmouthbay.com/?p=36

Anyway, I'm posting to hopefully get some comments or suggestions.
Or perhaps to serve as a warning to others.

----
Joshua Guthrie
www.westmouthbay.com

Edited by - jlguthri on 11/14/2005 20:49:19

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2005 : 21:42:43

I am no expert but I would be putting some mat at least down. Maybe even some roving then mat then cloth. Marine tex is wonderful stuff but I would want to make it stronger, not just dryer. (I suppose the cloth is superfluous since it is inside the box.)

Edited by - on

jlguthri
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2005 : 05:01:30

I actually am... thanks for the comment though...

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/15/2005 : 12:22:28

Hi Joshua,

Sorry to read of your travails with a botched swing repair(PO)I assume. My experience, having sunk my swing twice, is that even yard repairs are at best a temporary fix. I bought one of these yard jobs unaware that anything was amiss and it was perhaps a year before the repair opened up and down she went.

At this point I was sailing with a 6 year old and a new born and the thought of exposing them to the vagaries of even professional repairs that ended so caused me to look for other ways of dealing with the damaged keel trunk. Unfortunately my insurance company wouldn't consider my choice of repair. I wanted to go for the Catalina retrofit wing kit while they opted to have a yard repair the damage with gobs of fiberglass, which we did only to have it fail once again.

I wish that Ken Cave would step in at this time and tell of the longevity of the repair he had done on his swing. His is the one repair to a battered keel trunk that I don't know the outcome of. It seems to me that those boats are soon sold and the owners move to something less angst provoking.

I chose to go for the big bucks and do the job the way that I thought it should be done, I chose to switch to the wing keel. Expensive ,yes, but I couldn't stay with the swing nor dump the boat on an unsuspecting novice only to go through what I had gone through.
It cost a bunch but it has been the best money ever spent on the boat. I now have a boat that is totally trustworthy and though the kids have grown and moved on I find solace in the fact that at seventy five years of age I needn't be concerned with the boats seaworthyness.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT # 3936

Edited by - on

Aldo
Deckhand

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USA
15 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2005 : 12:45:34

Joshua: Thanks for your post, and the photos.

Val: I read and reread your post. My wife and I have been looking for a Swing Keel, C-25, for quite some time. We have had our C-22 Swing Keel for 25 years and enjoy it thoroughly. I have several questions after reading your post and Joshua’s. Is there any way to check the trunk for cracks? Is there something that can be easily lifted off of the trunk to see if it is cracked? What causes the crack? I assume that it is a failure of the keel wire that allows the keel to swing down and crack the aft part of the trunk. Are the keel wire assemblies inadequate by design, or of poor quality, or are they neglected by the owners?

When you say that your boat sunk, how deep did it sink? Did you just take some water into the floor of the boat or did the entire boat sink, ruining everything in it?

We have sailed our Swing Keel C-22 beside a C-22 with a Winged Keel, and I am not a big fan of the winged keel. Our boat is an ’80, and the other C-22 is an ’86, if I remember correctly. The winged keel couldn’t point as well as ours, and was considerably slower than ours. I believe that it is heavier than our boat. (I think that Catalina just made them heavier when they changed the interior layout). Another thing that I never thought about until I saw it, was that when we both went through the same wake from a big motorboat, our boat just went through the wave, but the winged keel bow pitched up and down, much more than our boat. My son was steering the winged keel boat, and he looked over at me, and I was watching him, and I could read his mind saying, “What’s this all about?” I guess that it is with the swing keel, much of the weight is down deep in the water, (since the keel is fatter at the bottom), so the keel acts as a long pendulum. With the winged keel, it is shorter, so it acts as a short pendulum, so the frequency of the bow pitching is shorter, and that’s why it continued to pitch up and down. Also, our friend with the winged keel lives in fear of going aground. On the Chesapeake, I have to admit that we do go aground, no matter how careful we are, but the bottom is almost always soft, so we just wind the keel up a little, and go on our way.

If Swing Keel C-25s are just not safe, I don’t know what we are going to do. Val, you are not the first one to tell us about this issue.

Thanks again Joshua and Val for your posts, Aldo

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2005 : 13:32:34

Aldo,
I owned a swinger and bought a wing. As for boat speed; our boats are not made with a very high level of quality control, they are about ISO-1

. We have a fleet of 12 here at my lake and I saw several brought in for the Nationals. I am convinced that the speed differences are more related to the luck of the build than anything else. I do believe that the fin is the best design because of its stability and capability to carry canvas in a blow.
Your observation about the wing pitching or hobby horsing is very odd. The wings serve as baffles, they reduce that effect dramatically on every winged boat I know of including the Catalina 25. My wing is much more stable on a run in chop and waves than my swinger was.
I cannot imagine being afraid of running aground with a wing. First, if you are sailing three foot water you need a Prindle. Second, if you run aground at 2'10" you climb down the ladder, push it off and forget about it, (other than to note how stupid you were to be sailing in 2'10" of water). The swinger has the deepest draft and reduces the sailing area for me. I sail in a typical prairie lake with a mud bottom that comes up very slowly, I don't tack off until 5', with my swinger I used to tack at 9'. If you were to get the swinger really buried or lodged you would be twisting the hangers and pin to get it off, the flat wing bottom will not lodge and can spin with no ill effect. The wing is lead, if you take a chunk out of it, you can fix it with a hand file! Swingers RUST and if you are anal like me that will drive you mad.
I think the swingers are wonderful and enjoyed mine, the wing is even more wonderfuller, no downside.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2005 : 16:06:44

Aldo, I'm already sorry that I mentioned my feelings about the swing design, it's all old hat on this forum. Research the arcives on swings and check out Ken Cave's repair ( well documented)
Personally I love the wing and if you want more pointing ability just lay it over more until the horizontal portion of the keel becomes more vertical then watch it point. If pointing is really important to you then the fin is the model you would be best advised to consider.

I think I've been sailing the wing nie onto ten years now and I couldn't be more pleased with the boat.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT

Edited by - on

jlguthri
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2005 : 17:38:10

Actually, the boat never sank.
I had about two inches of water on top of the floor.

Really, it couldn't. On low tide, there is less than 6 inches of water below the keel, only about a couple of feet on high tide. If I had left the boat alone for a few days, it would have sank to the bottom, but even then, it wouldn't have been catrastrophic. I rarely go more than two days w/o checking on the boat.

Very little got ruined. I decided not to drink the two liter Pepsi on the floor, a paper copy of a nautical chart didn't survive, and that was about it.

My crack was caused by me dropping keel. My brake winch malfunctioned, releasing it all at once. I think the PO actually caused the crack when his keel cable snapped. It looks like he only applied bondo over the crack to stop the leak.

My plan right now is to stop the leak. Then sand everything smooth and apply at least 6 (perhaps as many as 10) layers of fiberglass cloth. My idea is to make the crack structurly irrelevant. I hope to build up more glass ontop of the damaged original that what Catalina put there.

Did this help?

Edited by - jlguthri on 11/17/2005 17:41:58

atgep
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Response Posted - 11/17/2005 : 20:20:30

I have been to a composite school and the only way to fix it, is to grind the broken stuff out and build it back up. Think of it this way. Even if you build up an inch of glass, there will still be the crack in the matrix. If anything flexes, it will flex more where the previous crack is. This could cause a new crack to start. A fiberglass book will be a good read for this. Also, DON't use cheap resin for this. Get some good fresh epoxy for the layup and you will be much happier with the results.

I don't think the swingers are dangerous or faulty. When you let 1500 lbs swing to a stop and only have a small keel trunk, something is gonna break. If you fix it right, it will last another 20 or so years.

Tom.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
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Response Posted - 11/17/2005 : 21:36:56

Joshua,

I agree with Tom. Do it right the first time. Haul it out, grind it out, dry it out, use top quality materials and techniques. The resulting peace of mind will be well worth the slight additional time and expense.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

jlguthri
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2005 : 09:29:50

Agreed. I would like to do this. However, my concern is.. it is a pretty compound shape in the crack area. I would have to grind off, essentially the entire front face of the trunk. I doubt my ability to replicate this shape w/o the mold. It looked like a lot of the strenth of the original was in the shape of the mold. My fear was that I would then only be relying on bond of the first layer to the original glass for strength.

If my thoughts on this are right, I would have to cut off the entire aft face of the trunk. Drop the keel. Create new mold, in the shape of the old. Grind down the sides to a blade shape. Apply new glass. and have the devil with the top portion.

What I have hoped to do was to create a new keel trunk stop over the old, using the original as a mold. I intended to completly wrap glass cloth around the forward section of the trunk.

The thing that worried me about this was the possibility of material, overtime, getting impacted into the cracked area and causing an outward force. I don't know what he crack looks like from the wetted area. I had suspect, I'd have to put a small amount of glass inside the trunk where the keel would impact.

In short, given the shape of the surface the crack is on, I fear that I could do more harm than good very easily.

Inshort, am I missing something concerning how much material I should grind out?
I'm not 100% sure I'm following what you are saying.

Right now, I'm on hold for a warmer day.

Edited by - jlguthri on 11/19/2005 09:32:31

tinob
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Response Posted - 11/19/2005 : 09:45:38

Joshua,

Have you considered the wing retrofit? Seems like you have an awful lot of damage to repair. Did you look up Ken Cave's repair on the search portion of the site? His ordeal looked as your's sounds.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
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Response Posted - 11/19/2005 : 13:03:00

Joshua,<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">However, my concern is.. it is a pretty compound shape in the crack area. I would have to grind off, essentially the entire front face of the trunk. [I assume you meant aft face] I doubt my ability to replicate this shape w/o the mold. It looked like a lot of the strenth of the original was in the shape of the mold. My fear was that I would then only be relying on bond of the first layer to the original glass for strength.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I think I understand your concern about losing the shape of the keel trunk head without a male mold in place. Although I'm an advocate of aggressive grinding when patching fiberglass damage, I'm suggesting you not grind huge gaps in the original trunk head. Leave enough of it to act as a male mold for your repair.

After looking at the photos you linked to, here's how I think I'd proceed. I'd grind back the actual crack until the original fiberglass there is paper thin. If you over shoot a bit and end up with a slightly wider gap with razor thin edges, that's OK. I'd then use the grinder to taper back the thickness from there at a ratio of at least 12:1. That is, if the trunk head material is 3/8" thick (as an example), taper back the thickness for at least 4-1/2" (3/8"x12=4-1/2"). If you want to taper it further (shallower), that's fine, just don't taper it any steeper.

In the interest of adding strength to the trunk head, and seeing as how it looks like you've got pretty good access now (traditional interior, right?) you could grind the surface down to flat laminate all the way around the trunk head (all the area that your photos show as accessible). Then you could wrap new fiberglass all the way around the trunk head.

As for which fiberglass to use, I'd suggest either fiberglass tape (easy to work with) or unidirectional roving (has the vast majority of its fibers oriented in one direction for strength, with just enough threads going the other way to hold it together while it's being applied).

See fhopper's image, above:
<center>

</center>
In deciding how to select and orient the new fiberglass, picture having to reinforce the trunk head against a keel impact if the only material you had to work with was a huge amount slightly sticky thin thread. That's the direction you want your new glass fibers to lay. For repair resin, I use WEST epoxy. It's my understanding that fiberglass mat is best used with polyester resins to prevent print-through and as a tie layer between roving, and isn't appropriate for epoxy based repair work. I'd also avoid the use of woven roving here, as it doesn't provide as strong a fiber/resin ratio as lighter cloth or unidirectional weaves. Roving is used in production situations to build up stiffness (reduce oil-canning) in lightly stressed flat surfaces as quickly and inexpensively as possible (and weight be damned). Your structural goal here isn't stiffness, it's toughness (resistance to fracturing and tearing). A litle flex would be a good thing! Feel free to research that point further. Maybe Dave Laux will add his thoughts here. As a professional boat technician, he's probably sanded away more fiberglass than I've applied in my life as a hobbyist.

Be sure the old material is ground back to woven laminate (past any gelcoat and mat), smooth, and clean, clean, clean. You're right to be concerned about getting a good secondary mechanical bond to the old work, but with proper preparation it shouldn't be a problem.

When building up repair material, don't hesitate to go a little thicker than original, but there's probably no need to get carried away.

Be sure to use a good respirator, and thoroughly vacuum and wipe up the dust when you're done grinding. When I decided to do a mess of fiberglass work inside my C-25, I removed *everything* that wasn't bolted down. I did my best to get all the grinding and sanding done once and for all. I used a box fan laid over the fore hatch to move air through the cabin while doing fiberglass work. Then, after vacuuming, I used a garden hose, scrub brush, and sponge to chase all the dust to the lowest points where I could remove it as a liquid. (I still have a thin layer of off-white fine sediment in my bilge, but no fiberglass residue anywhere else.) A complete interior cleaning like this is a good idea every few years anyway, so try not to think of it as extra work.

If you're not experienced working with fiberglass, this repair could seem intimidating. Trust me, the hardest part of the job is picking up the grinder and getting started. The first time I did structural repair below the waterline I did a lot of procrastinating and nervous hand wringing. Now that I've done it a few times, I wouldn't hesitate to dive right in.

Feel free to ask more detailed questions as you proceed!

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

jlguthri
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2005 : 23:37:42

I'm still confused by what you mean by grinding.

All the fiberglass repair work I've done before, required me to taper the ground out dammage at a genltle gradiant. That way, I'm not putting much stress at one point, or inviting air pockets, etc.

However, I fear that this trunk area is at least 1/8" thick (probably more). To taper out the ground out dammage to what I would feel conforable with would take out the entire aft surface of the trunk. --that the taper will extend into the corner and I fear getting a good bond will be a problem. My crack runs down the thin (about 2.5" - 3") aft surface of the trunk at an angle from the lower port to upper starbord corners of this secton.

I could perhaps, grind it out, at an extreme steep angle-- cut out the damage instead of grinding... apply a epoxy cavaseal and glass over it perhaps.. But I don't think it will buy me anything in terms of strength..

I would feel more conforatable cutting out the entire trunk, make a mold from the old, and create a new keel trunk than doing the amount of grinding that I think I would have to do.

I think the pictures may make the crack look like it is on the side of the trunk more than it is... the crack is on the curved aft surface of the keel trunk stop. It is only a few inchs surface.

Edited by - jlguthri on 11/19/2005 23:40:02

Leon Sisson
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Response Posted - 11/20/2005 : 09:21:18

Joshua,<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">To taper out the ground out dammage to what I would feel conforable with would take out the entire aft surface of the trunk. --that the taper will extend into the corner...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yes, you will need to continue the taper past the corners. See sketch:
<center>

</center>
I have done almost exactly this repair when I modified the forward (curved) face of my keel trunk head to add a 'to-hull' for a keel position indicator. (One of several underwater patches I made which have been in service for well over five years.

) The actual thickness is closer to the the 3/8" I cited in my previous example than to your 1/8" guess. As you grind back, you can probably keep track of your depth, and hence your taper, by studying the layers of woven roving exposed, sort of like counting the rings of a tree, or the plys and glue lines of plywood when planing a scarf joint. If this all goes the way I'm visualizing it, the work can all be done with the keel still installed. If you'd like to trade thoughts on technique more rapidly, you're welcome to give me a call.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - Leon Sisson on 11/20/2005 09:53:50

jlguthri
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2005 : 09:34:20

I C -- think you are right.. I'm going to continue to put a few layers of cloth on before pull out, to make the trip less "interesting." 3+hour trip in winter time.

thanks

I wrote your phone number down, if you want to edit it to take it off the internet... thanks!

Edited by - jlguthri on 11/20/2005 09:37:42

dave holtgrave
Captain

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USA
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Response Posted - 11/21/2005 : 09:45:35

hey josh
i had the page 37 open the other day reviewing your keel work.

today i can't get it open.
can youn please forward or help

thanks
dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tr

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2005 : 11:34:25

I often thought that a useful procedure would be to make (or have made) a "U"-shaped piece of stainless steel, perhaps an inch or two wide, and as thick and long as seemed appropriate. This could be drilled at each end with a few holes. These holes could be treated much as chainplates are sometimes treated; that is, strips of glass cloth are run through the holes and then epoxied to the body of the trunk. The "U" would face aft,and be slipped over the keel trunk, of course, with a view towards being a "fail-safe" for unexpected, inadvertant keel deployment. The whole works would then be glassed over--metal "U", tabbing,trunk, etc. I never did this to "Orion" but it was on the list of projected jobs. Well down the list, to be sure. Regards to all, ron in Venice, FL

Edited by - on

jlguthri
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 02/16/2006 : 20:21:43

Update:
I've applied my first 4 layers of fiberglass cloth to my broken keel. I'm using 2" tape fiberglass tape and West System Epoxy resin (I agree that cheep epoxy has no place here). I put the first layer running up the crack, the 2nd layer horizontally with 1/4" overlap. I got the next two layers today. Each time, I make the tape longer to grap about 2 inches of new keel trunk each time. I'm hoping by using the vertical, then horizontal, I'll build back the original shape. I ended up grinding out the crack.

The crack wasn't really that much a crack as a delamination or busting. It looked like there may have been a spot between layers that didn't get wet in poly when the boat was built. When I was prying around with my pocket knife, I found dry fibers inside. Not stiff, corse, but fluffy fibers. It looked stranger than what I've seen when fiberglass gives way...

What do you think about the odds of this? I would have thought it very remote.

anyway, it made grining more interesting than I had planned.

I'll get around to taking more pix soon, and I'll post them when I do. http://westmouthbay.com/?p=37 should work now...

Edited by - jlguthri on 02/16/2006 20:23:47

jlguthri
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 05/15/2006 : 20:45:29

Thank goodness. I finally finished my repair. I hope to put the boat back over Wednesday or Friday. Thank you all kindly for all your advice and for a great sane sounding board. This a great forum.

Here is the link to the repair:
http://westmouthbay.com/index/index.php/?p=37

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/16/2006 : 00:40:41

I looked at a lot of C25's before I bought. One of the reasons I bought this individual was that everything looked original, except the OB. The remarkable thing, IMHO, is that this boat had no structural repairs and looked like it was lightly used. A 1981 boat originally owned by a doctor...second PO listed his main reason for selling as his height (he's 6'6").
I had the boat inspected by a coast guard captain - he said 'buy it, it's a gem'.
Having lurked on this site for about a year before I bought, I understood that the swing keel was a potential problem or disaster but also a source of joy when the owner understood and properly acted upon the dynamics of the swing keel mechanism.
This weekend, I painted my hull and did a detailed inspection of the keel mechanism while the boat was in the sling

Last summer, I ran aground on several occasions

and extricated myself by raising the keel.

I love this boat, and I am totally sold on the merits of the swing keel...that being said, what are the main reasons for swing keel failure? is it the cable breaking or is it the winch mechanism failing?
Now that I've dismantled the boat and put it back together again - I wonder two things: 1) will it ever work again

2)is there a secondary or fail safe mechanism I can build in the event of cable or winch failure.

I know there are greater minds than mine at work here...but while waiting for paint to dry, I couldn't help but ponder the possibilities of using that spare keel cable in a braking mechanism.

Edited by - on

SailormanCGA72
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 05/16/2006 : 07:20:52

All this discussion about broken trunks brings back some bad memories. When I bought CynPat in 1989, it was in the water 10 days when a bad storm blew through and the cable parted. Of course the keel swung down and broke out the back of the trunk. The boat sank to a level of 3 inches of water below the cabin coaming. My dock lines kept it from sinking out of sight I suppose. Anyway, I dewatered the boat and converted to a wing keel. I have not been disappointed. I don't have to worry about the integrity of the boat hinged on one single swedge. There are no holes in the bottom. And I don't have to listen to that annoying cable hum. As far a pointing, the few times I've raced I won. (I really don't like racing, but some people need a humility lesson once in a while

.)

I imagine that I'll have this old boat when I die, but if not, I'll never consider a swinger.

Steve

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2006 : 10:39:24

As far as a sfety line, there are lots of high tech lines that are as strong or stronger than wire. Maybe someone needs to test the longevity of them.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/16/2006 : 12:38:50

Nice web site Joshua.
When I had my boat surveyed, I found it interesting that the surveyor would remove the keel trunk cover. You've detailed why that's an important thing to inspect.
I look forward to hearing how your repair holds.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
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Response Posted - 05/16/2006 : 20:13:51

"is it the cable breaking or is it the winch mechanism failing?"

Most of the failures I've heard about were from the cable breaking right at the edge of the swaged fitting. IMHO: The failed cables may have been 'over-swaged'... resulting in micro-cracking of the stainless strands at the edge of the swage. That provides an opportunity for crevice corrosion and failure.

There may also have been other opportunities for failure in the design of the original attachment from the cable to the keel... the fitting would get cocked and put the cable in a bind. The newer fitting design prevents this from happening.

I have heard of a few winch run-aways. I had mine spin down when I accidentally removed the handle while lowering. I think the intertial mass of the handle is important in activating the braking mechanism. Keep your winch clean and corrosion free... and you should be fine in that area.

As far as a safety mechanism.. dunno why they didn't build in several inches of high-density cushioning material where the keel swings up against the trunk. That plus a bit more internal reinforcement probably would prevent structural damage in the event of a 'runaway'.

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 05/16/2006 : 22:28:57

Joshua -

Three questions about your trailer - (great work on the trunk by the way.)

1. Did you weld or bolt the stands, I couldnt tell from the narrative or the pics?

2. You don't have any bow support - any thoughts of a 5th stand welded to the front of the trailer with a v plate insted of the pad. Most boat trailers (non float on/off) have some sort of a bow piece or at the very least a guide.

3. Any thoughts of strapping that boat on and heading up here for Nationals? North Carolina isn't that bad of a trip - straight up 77.

Duane

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