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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1757 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/01/2024 : 14:14:45

While the C-25 regattas seem to be over, I am surprises that other Catalina racing or, local clubs that have a decent number of our class have not posted. Also, is there still interest in "regional" regattas and if so what are the most important aspects to pulling one off??

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9043 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2024 : 08:51:44

A question out of the past... I frankly believe that very few current C-25 owners are racers at heart--if they were, they'd probably be in another boat. We've had some great ones (Derek Crawford, Chuck Shaw, Steve Milby...) who humiliated a lot of "faster boats"--I don't think we know what has become of those particular vessels, and sadly, they never squared off against each other. But class racing isn't the C-25's forte, like the portable one-design C-22, and our C-25/250/Capri National Regatta faded away years ago. Capri 25s, designed as racers with one-design rules, are still have some racing fleets last I knew.

Sometime after several failed attempts by others to generate National Regattas, I suggested trying regional get-togethers, including off-season without boats (like at a restaurant in Mystic), and an award program based on posted reports for Racer of the Year (including PHRF results), Cruisers of the Year, Upgrader of the Year, Volunteer of the Year,........ I thought most of that could be organized without huge efforts and judged by the officers, but there was virtually no response.

As C-25s and 250s (neither created for racing) have become more elderly, I suspect they have logically become somewhat less the focal points of their newer owners. They're "a nice day on the water," as ours was for us. Participation on this forum has slowed, I believe... Things change.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/03/2024 09:03:14

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5881 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2024 : 09:58:33

For about 30 years the national association organized a national regatta, to class-race C25s and 250s. Sadly, that's history. Those who never attended a national regatta didn't understand how important it was to the association. It created an opportunity for members who only knew each other from a distance to gather together, socialize, enjoy the event and to create good memories, and most of the officers in the association were racers who were energized to contribute.

I haven't heard of any class racing of C25s for years, but I believe the boats can be raced competitively in phrf racing. Some say the C25 isn't really a race boat, and it's true that it wasn't specifically designed to race, but it's as fast as many race boats, which have to give it handicap time. That means, if you can cross the finish line fairly close behind the race boats, you'll win. Not many serious racers race C25s. As a result, they are given a very generous handicap. It's easy for a skilled racer to sail the boat better than its handicap rating in around-the-buoys races. If you race in a venue where spinnakers are the norm, you should fly a spinnaker to be competitive.

Catalina 27s, which are an older design than C25s, and which have about a 4" shorter waterline than the C25, are still very competitively raced in phrf. The C25s specs suggest that it's lighter and faster than a C27.

If you like to race, race in a phrf fleet. You might well do better than you expect.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1757 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2024 : 11:13:37

Dave, Steve, All good comments. While times have changed and the interest in C25 one-design regattas has apparently passed I would guess that some are doing some mid-week, beer can PHRF racing. My limited experience participating in a PHRF Wednesday night race was that with a 135 head sail offset by my son who is experienced and was a sailing instructor, mid-pack was as good as it was going to get. With a 150, well who knows. Still, it is always nice to hear how others enjoy our boats when competing around the bouyes.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9043 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2024 : 14:02:00

"One-design" is a misnomer with the C-25, given its three types of keels and its two mast heights. (That's six significant combinations.) The C-250 suffers from two forms of ballast and keels, each coming with a slightly different rig (shroud placements, standard headsail, etc.), and they built a few fin keels and tall rigs early on--apparently deciding the boat was two tender for the TR, and maybe the FK detracted to much from its trailerability. I don't know if any limits are placed on sails in our "rules"--certainly a few owners have embellished on things like huge roaches and full battens (and crushed their ratings). I have to wonder how many or which of the variations any PHRF committee takes into account to handicap either boat. It could be a tall-fin C-25 and a standard-wing C-25 get the same rating--no fairsies! And the rare tall-fin C-250 might really score against hers!

The Capri 25, like many other one-designs, has just one hull, keel, rig, sail measurement list, etc. It's meant to be raced as designed, with skill, not equipment, determining the outcome. (I'm sure many its owners worked to keep their bottoms polished!) I recall their rules even have limits on how often you can replace the sails, so money is less of a factor. Frank Butler didn't eclipse the J-24 with this one for club racing world-wide, but he got some fleets (like on Lake Minnetonka in Minnesota). I suspect he considered that his nod to racing, and aimed the Catalinas (other than a couple of ocean racers) toward family sailing. (I know, some families race--I've seen that come out less than well.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/10/2024 14:10:39

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5881 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2024 : 16:42:15

Peter, in order to be competitive, a racer needs to scrub the bottom of the boat before a race. A clean bottom makes a world of difference. A well prepared C25 with a clean bottom, well tuned rig and decent sails can sail much better than its handicap. The most competitive racers are doing all those things. Improving those three things will likely improve your results. But, very few people do everything well. In my Cal 25 one design fleet, I occasionally won races but didn't fly a spinnaker well, and got clobbered in spinnaker races. In the Friday night beer cans, however, they were non-spin and usually in light air, and I killed the fleet in light air. Work on what needs improvement and don't be discouraged. As your boat prep improves and you gain experience, you'll do better. But, ultimately the goal is to have fun with friends and family on the boat.

Different phrf ratings are usually assigned to each of the different C25 rig and keel variations. When we held C25 national regattas, we all raced in a single start, but each rig and keel type had its own phrf rating to make the competition equal.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3319 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2024 : 09:03:57

Steve, I appreciate all of your points - except one! I never flew a spinnaker as I discovered that a poled-out 155 sailed the angles was just as fast as if we had a spinnaker. At the Nationals on the Columbia River (not on TSU) we beat every spinnaker boat.
I agree with your handicap assessment, with my 222 I often beat a J105!
I am sorry that the Catalina folks no longer hold a Nationals - they
were a lot of fun.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5881 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2024 : 10:10:41

quote:
Originally posted by Derek Crawford

Steve, I appreciate all of your points - except one! I never flew a spinnaker as I discovered that a poled-out 155 sailed the angles was just as fast as if we had a spinnaker. At the Nationals on the Columbia River (not on TSU) we beat every spinnaker boat.

I also never flew a spinnaker when racing my C25, for the same reasons. We always raced short windward/leeward or triangular courses, and it's really difficult for a spinnaker boat to have perfect hoists and take downs on a short spinnaker run. While they were untangling their chutes we passed them. It's different on the Chesapeake Bay, where you see more skilled spinnaker sailors, and a race from Annapolis to St. Michaels might involve more than one several-miles- long spinnaker run. If they can get on a reach with their symmetrical spinnaker, they can generate tremendous speed, sometimes even planing, depending on the boat. Out there, you can't win spinnaker races with jib and mainsail.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3319 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2024 : 14:56:02

I'm glad I raced here...

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5881 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2024 : 06:21:41

quote:
Originally posted by Derek Crawford

I'm glad I raced here...

I hear you, but I know you love a challenge, and you'd have loved racing on the Bay. After racing for many years on an inland lake, you suddenly realize how different it is on a big tidal bay, and how much you have to learn. It makes you get excited about racing all over again.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3319 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2024 : 07:47:13

Actually Steve, I raced on the Columbia River in a C5, Lake Erie and the Chesapeake in my friend's Precision 23. Very different from a lake!

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

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