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A case of Fivefoot-itis

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5333 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/29/2025 : 06:47:23

Ok so cabin fever has gotten to me again this year with a traditional cold winter here in New England. The Ni�o/Ni�a warmup never materialized so I�m starting to get antsy. I�ve visited my icicle-bound Passage a few times this month, and thankfully no incidents.
I checked out some boats on a few websites and noted a Catalina 30 Mark lll and a Catalina 309, both about turn of century and seemingly well-kept.
For those with experience or hearsay here, are there any major advantages or foibles about these two models? E.g.: poor design decisions, consistent failings of parts like engine, rigging, steering, plumbing?
I�m really just trying to understand a baseline here, I have read reviews (for what they�re worth) and checked the specifications. And while the 309 is a few years newer and 1.5 ft longer, it�s nearly 2X the price of the other.
If/when I do settle on a finalist, of course I will hire a survey. Good negotiation strategy and good for peace of mind.
Thoughts, suggestions, experiences?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9068 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2025 : 08:08:10

They are what they are: 2 generations of hull designs, construction technologies, systems, rigging, interior layouts,... The 309's extra length is spent on the sugar-spoon transom, and the cockpit and aft berth widths products of the more contemporary hull shape. The 309 rig is (very slightly) fractional--I don't know how that changes much. The 30 has been built with several different engines--my friends had one with the ubiquitous (in its time) Atomic 4 gas engine--it was smooth and quiet compared to typical diesels, and parts/service were widely available. That was 25+ years ago... I doubt you'd find one in any 309, and I wouldn't prefer one in any boat today.

In terms of maintenance and repair going forward, I suspect your price differences are signs of things to come. Long-term costs may turn out very similar. Resale could be another consideration. The 30 is now a "classic" without being "classic."

My friends loved their 30 (chosen partly for its unusual tiller steering), but moved up to a C-34--closer to the current generation than to their 30. The 34 seemed WAY bigger!

(Thinking of my old girl Passage now...

)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/29/2025 08:14:15

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5889 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2025 : 12:10:41

I had lots of experience with a friend's A4 engine and wouldn't hesitate to own one. They're very reliable and cheap and easy to maintain, but some people are hesitant to own one and that will affect the resale value. Newer C30s will all be diesel powered.

Between about 1984 and 1989, Catalinas, like most fiberglass boats, had a blister problem, but that was remedied in 1989, so later boats should not be a concern. The hulls of Catalina 30s are solid, hand laid-up fiberglass. The decks are plywood cored, however, so your surveyor should check for any soft spots in the decks. Newer boats will be less of a concern.

The frameless windows in the later models are a huge improvement over the aluminum framed windows, but they can occasionally crack or break their seal, so check them for leaks.

Check all the systems to make sure they work, including the stove, the head, pressure water, electrical, refrigeration and AC if it has it. Also check all the instruments. If they don't work, they're expensive to repair or replace. Your surveyor might not check all those things.

Don't let the yacht broker hire the surveyor. Hire one yourself. Brokers try to use surveyors who won't find so many problems that will prevent the deal from being made. You'll want to know all the problems, and you can decide whether or not each one is important to you.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

DavidCrosby
Navigator

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USA
234 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2025 : 21:42:52

I can not offer a lot of input on these two models. I have looked at a few Catalina 30s and know a person who owns a 30mkIII. I like the layout of the C30, but I am 6'1" and find the double berths all to be just a bit too short. I think the mkIII is an attractive version of the 30, I like the walkout transom and window refinements. I have not sailed a C30.

I have only seen a 309 at a boat show in the past. So, really can not make any comments on this model other than it is nearly identical in dimensions to the C320.

I highly recommend trying to spend some time on board various models before acting.

Hang on, here comes a story. I will try not to make this too long:

We were three couples with three boats (C250wk, C250wb, Hunter 260) that would take our boats north each summer for our annual vacation. My friend with the H260 and I were suffering from bigboat-itis. He has a big truck and has experience towing very large campers. I had a Morgan 30 many years back and had concocted the ability to raise and lower a keel stepped mast without any outside assistance. We pretty well convinced ourselves that we could make the C320 trailerable, well aware of the needs for permits, etc., etc., etc. I guess I succeeded in convincing my friend, because he sold the H260, had a trailer built and then we went on the hunt to find him a C320. Spring 2023, we hauled his newly purchased 1995 C320 from Port Canaveral, FL to Carlyle, IL. Summer of 2023, we were not quite ready to haul the big boat north just for a two week vacation. So, the two 250s trailered north and our friend and wife stayed in an AirBnB and sailed with us during the day.

The more time I spent sailing on my friend's 320, the more I liked the boat. I really liked how it sailed and found the cockpit and interior to be very comfortable. My wife had some specific criteria that had to be met and the C320 seemed to hit those points as well.

By the summer of 2024, we had come to the conclusion, that while the C320 could be DIY trailered, the logistics were way too high for a two week vacation. The 2024 trip was a repeat of the two C250s traveling and the other couple doing the AirBnB thing.

While up north, summer 2024, we decided to take a look at a C320 that was for sale nearby. (I had started scheming that I could afford to have a bigger boat kept at the lake as our summer cottage as well as keep my C250 and leave it in storage most of the year and bring it out for just our annual trip north.)

We agreed to buy the boat on the spot. We finished our group vacation and then towed the C250 back home. The owner of the C320 invited us to come back and spend a week onboard the 320 while closing the deal. A month later, my two friends and I came back with his truck and trailer, my truck and another trailer. We loaded the cradle and all excess gear in to my trailer. Loaded the boat on to my friend's trailer and hauled it 700 miles south to our home lake.

We really like to do sailing trips. Our home lake is definitely land locked. We have decided to have two boats until we retire. The 320 will be our primary boat. We spend nearly every weekend at the lake seven months each year. The 320 will be quite a bit more comfortable.

For now, the 250 will stay on its trailer ready to travel. We will do our "up north" trips each summer with the 250. Once we retire, we plan to move the 320 back north and spend our summers exploring the Great Lakes.

In closing, the bigger boat adds a lot of complexity to boat ownership. Definitely something to consider. We spend a LOT of time on our boat each summer so I feel the extra effort is worth it.

A bigger boat also requires quite a bit more physical effort than the 25/250.

David Crosby "Small World"
'02 C250 WK #614

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9068 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2025 : 10:07:54

Big vs. small... This brings to mind my feeling about sailing on our friends' C-30 and on our C-25. The differences in space and livability are obvious--especially when you actually go aboard. (That 5' (20%) gives way more than it sounds like--the 10,200 lb. displacement is a better indicator.) The sailing is another topic...

For pure sailing enjoyment, I think of "smaller is better." And the C-25 vs the C-30 was a good illustration to me. The C-30 felt more like piloting a ship (as other, bigger boats have seemed to me). The C-25 just felt more like sailing--its responsiveness to the helm, the trim, and even the "movable ballast" (to a small extent). Full disclosure: My favorite sailboat, for pure sailing, might be the Sunfish, where even the height you choose to raise the sail is a factor, and hiked out on a reach in a 20-kt breeze I have skipped across an Arizona lake like a flat rock! Foils?? No need! More fun!

But what I'm saying is, if comfort and livability (like for a week or longer trip) is the objective, 30' (especially a Catalina) is in that category. But for sailing enjoyment, my personal experience is that 28' is about the dividing line. I think I would probably love sailing an Alerion 28, but not spending a week on it. I could spend a week on/in a Catalina 28, but the sailing part might be missing something.

Just a feeling...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/30/2025 10:10:26

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5889 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2025 : 17:21:36

Big boats obviously have more luxurious accommodations for more crew and guests, but if we're only talking about sailing qualities, the main difference is that small boats get beaten up by sailing to windward in short, choppy seas. The ride is rough and wet, as the waves break on the bow and are blown into the cockpit by strong winds. The length of a big boat smooths out choppy waves much better. Boats with a longer waterline sail faster. But, a sloop is a sloop, whether it's 23' or 45'. All the principles of sail trim and helmsmanship are the same.

I love small boats for daysailing, but I love big boats for a 90 mile race, when you must continue sailing through light air or a storm. The size of boat that's right for you depends on how and where you intend to use it. If you want to be able to stay out in a little rougher weather and cruise longer distances, then a little bigger boat is clearly the better choice.

Comparing the specs of the C30 and C309, the 309 has about 1.5' longer waterline, which offers a higher hull speed, the 309 has nearly 75' more sail area, which provides more wind power to drive the boat, the 309 has slightly less displacement and slightly less ballast. A tall rig C30 would have more sail area, but the same LWL. Despite the differences, I've sailed a C30, and they are a pleasure to sail. So, the decision is yours. Considering the performance differences, the accommodation differences and the price differences, which best meets your overall needs?

Edited by - Steve Milby on 01/30/2025 17:38:17

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1314 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2025 : 13:05:32

Bruce... we well know the feeling of cabin fever and blues in the dead of the winter with time to dream.

We can't offer much in the way of advice although we have traveled the larger more roomy boat road many a time.

Seems to me that David has the very best of both worlds with his two boat dream. We would have loved that too.

In 2007 and just returning from our year-long road and float trip around the continent we concluded the following...

Both Johanna and myself age 61 & 64 have lived full time, on board of our '95 C250 WB for 13 months, traveling and sailing 25,000 km (17,000 miles) around our continent and loving it. (see our trip reports posted on this forum: Living on board full time and going South 1-16) What's next?? There are so many options available... we may just eye#357; a 32-36 footer and live on board full time. Selling our C250 WB is the last thing we would want to consider since it provides the flexibility we want to go sailing anywhere & anytime where the weather is warm. Or another idea is to ship our C250 WB to Holland and canal motor/sail to Paris and beyond. Once in Paris then to contact this forum and see if anyone would be interested to share the boat and motor/ sail it back from Paris to Holland Another idea is explore Thailand by rice boat from Bangkok to the interior or visa versa... or finish sailing the North Channel in Northern Ontario... we dream on...

Henk & Johanna
"Floating", a few off your "barnacles".
"Someday Lady" '95 C250WB #151 ('03 - 2016)
"Sea ya" 30ft Bayliner (04-2018 - 09-2018)
"Mariah" '96 C250WB #191 (05-2019 - 15-05-2023)
"Lady J" '00 C250WK #499 (05-2021 - 09-2022)

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5333 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2025 : 08:13:26

Thank you Dave, Steve, David, and Henk for your words of advice and encouragement!

As things have gone so far, the 309, which is my dream boat (Cathy and I spent a few hours on one after a boat show), turned out to be overpriced. The owners are aging out, but simply can�t imagine anybody else owning her, so are unwilling to budge on their high price.

The 30Mlll is from late production in the late 90�s. I�m going to assume that it�s a diesel, but I�d prefer the gasoline powered engine since the smell of diesel really turns me off. It has the frameless windows.

I appreciate all the advice on what to check, what to look at, and who should hire the surveyor. It�s cheap insurance in my book.

Dave and Steve, I get what you�re saying about �sailing� a boat. I had a 16ft daysailer and a 13ft dinghy and the sheer fun and excitement of getting them up on plane and surfing down a wave was just amazing.

I�m aging out of that now as a mainstay, but am looking for a boat where I can sail for a week or two from New Haven to Narragansett and the Cape, or even all around LI Sound in comfort without crouching in the cabin.

I�m planning a visit to the C30 when the owners return from vacation in 2 weeks. I have to schedule a weekend day since I�m still working, and it�s a full-day trip including a 1-hour ferry both ways.

I don�t believe I�d keep both boats like David, but it�s a thought. We really don�t have a lake in CT that�s big enough for a 25 ft sailboat, Sure there�s NH, VT, and NY state lakes, but sailing season is pretty short in the great white north, from Father�s Day until the end of September.

It�s a lot to think about, so I�ll take it one step at a time. Hope to retire in May, maybe buy a new boat, buying a slip this year and hopefully having some retirement time to sail, to travel, and to enjoy life a little.

Thanks again!

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5333 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2025 : 08:23:01

Henk, I think that you and Johanna would love! a canal trip in Holland, Belgium, France and the Riviera.
I love that area having spent weeks in Amsterdam, Hilversum, Maastricht, Brussels, and Paris when I was working with Philips in the 90s. It would be a wonderful trip, especially if you speak Dutch or Flemish, and maybe French.
Go for it! Enjoy

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1314 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2025 : 16:36:22

Ah... Bruce so you housed in Eindhoven during your Philips years, the place where I grew up and still have the smell of "Bakkeliet", the forerunner of plastics, in my nostrils.

At the age of 21 just after finishing college I left Holland for an adventure on this continent which is still ongoing. Both for business, family and pleasure I returned many times and know and love the affluent places and country you mentioned. By the way, I don't want to sound snotty, but I still master 2 Dutch dialects plus the official language

One of these days I still hope to do a river cruise instead of dreaming using a Catalina 25footer. We've followed people who did the trip on their own 25 and 27ft sailboats and envied them

Seems the Dutch are doing it again much like during the bygone "Golden Age", but now by fabricating nano chip making devices in Veldhoven an offspring group from Philips called ASML and apparently controlling the entire world. Seems that Apple, Samsung and Intel among others rely of them

BTW Thank you for your kind words regarding the re-posting of our "Planning For Extended Cruising" on the Cruising Forum.

Edited by - zeil on 02/02/2025 16:46:38

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