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Rudder gudgeon loose

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5306 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/23/2024 : 21:46:13

For quite some time I have been hearing a strange snapping or crunching sound while steering hard in big waves from the stern or rear quarter. And when I heard the sound I also felt a click in the tiller like something was hanging up, then letting go. It was very concerning but since it only occurred sparsely and unpredictably, and was located behind the transom somewhere out of sight, I really couldn�t tell what the root cause was.

Then a few weeks ago I thought �let me check the cotter pin that holds the pintles in the gudgeons, so I wiggled the tiller every-which-way while I was on the dock, but couldn�t see any interference and the snap didn�t reoccur.

Last week, I checked the upper gudgeon�s stainless steel bolts and when I spun one with a screwdriver, it literally snapped right off about an inch and a quarter along the shaft. I said, �Aha! I�ve found the culprit!� And so I replaced the bolt and fully expected the sound to stop. � It didn�t.

So what the heck is going on?!? I thought.

I checked the other bolts, and no problems. All seemed tight, at least with my screwdriver.
Now yesterday I was coming back into the river�s mouth during the big swells and steep tidal currents that we�ve had this past week, and �SNAP�, there it was again. Doh!

This time I rechecked all six bolts with my heavy-duty screwdriver and one of the lower gudgeon bolts had snapped off in the same spot. Just inside the transom. The gudgeon seemed to get loose and under load, slid back and forth due to the play between the bolt holes in the metal and the holes in the transom. That was what was causing the crunch and snap!

Apparently, the ss bolts must have been subject to crevice corrosion due to a lack of oxygen inside the transom. The bolts shafts were covered with polysulfide to seal out any seawater, which starved the bolts of oxygen.

The upper gudgeons inside nuts are easily accessible from inside the quarterberth, however, I cannot see the lower gudgeons bolts from the inside. There�s a small slot between the inside of the quarterberth and the inside of the hull, so I�ll have to fish around in there for the 7/16� nuts. This could be a real PITA to reach and fix.

I recall replacing all six bolts about a dozen years ago when they loosened up on their own. I tightened them down well, coated the bolts with caulk, and added lock nuts to the bolts. The backing plates still look OK.

Well, here they are 12 years later failing once again. I reckon I�ll replace them again.

I�m super glad that they did not ALL fail at the same time. That would�ve really ruined my day.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3403 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2024 : 13:26:30

I guess the good news is that you are experienced with making the repairs - So, it should be easier this time around....at least in theory.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9043 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2024 : 14:38:11

Several people have reported cutting a hole and installing an inspection plate to access the upper gudgeon nuts. Catalina didn't bother--they just installed threaded bronze plates inside the hull before mounting the cockpit/deck molding, so nuts weren't "necessary". By now, most of us have found they are a good thing to add.

I recommend buying SS bolts in a marine store--not a hardware store. Who knows... but as some bridge and building contractors have recently discovered, SS bolts come in varied levels of quality--some have made the news! 316 stainless is preferable to 304 and 18-8 for most marine purposes, especially for resisting crevice corrosion and deterioration from salt exposure. 18-8 is not great in a saltwater environment.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5306 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2024 : 21:05:06

The job will be a little difficult because the bolts may have corroded somewhat, but the upper gudgeon is visible and out in the open. The lower gudgeon, being just above the waterline has two disadvantages.
(1) If I�m not careful, I could get some water in the boat. Hopeful that the bottom most bolt will be easy to remove. To prevent leaks, I can get some polysulfide caulk neatly on the bolts when reinstalling. The backing plate is also threaded, so this might create some difficulty (binding, stripping,etc). We shall see.
(2) The backing plate, the bolts and the nuts are completely out of sight from inside the quarterberth. I could do a lot of fishing, feeling, working blind to replace the bolts, or I could use my sawzall to remove some of the inner liner blocking my view. I hesitate to cut out a chunk of fiberglass, but if it�s going to make the job go easier, I�ll be careful and do it. It�s hardly a visible location so no harm, no foul.

Moral of the story is that stainless, for all of its wonderful properties, it will eventually fail. Seeing the signs and getting some warning was a godsend. Take nothing for granted!

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 09/25/2024 21:09:19

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4009 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2024 : 11:01:11

Have you ever upgraded the old gudgeons to the new more robust ones? The old ones had a tendency to bend. They also used smaller bolts 1/4-20 machine screws into a drilled and tapped plate. The new upgraded gudgeons use larger 5/16-18 bolts. When I upgraded my gudgrons I drilled a hole and installed the inspection plate like Dave mentioned to gain access to the upper backing plate and I also installed nylon locking nuts. The bottom is accsesed behind the teak panel at the back of the quarter berth.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 09/26/2024 11:12:50

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9043 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2024 : 19:25:39

I recall getting a pair of those reinforced gudgeons, and had problems getting them aligned. With those SS sleeves under each pintle hole, the alignment of each gudgeon to the other has to be very precise for the pintles to fit into both, and the pintles have to be precisely vertical. I think I gave up and re-mounted the originals--Bruce would know. I never saw evidence of them bending, and somebody sat on my tiller hard enough to split it (a different "snapping sound." That's the only force I can think of that would bend them--steering forces are more lateral.

I think I added nuts to the bottom gudgeon (Bruce would know), but not the upper one, which would have required installing the inspection plate. The bottom one takes the most forces. I just relied on the threaded bronze plate for the upper gudgeon, but checked tightnesses occasionally.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4009 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2024 : 12:42:33

the alignment of each gudgeon to the other has to be very precise for the pintles to fit into both, and the pintles have to be precisely vertical.

This is so true but I solved this problem by sliding a piece of 1/2" rebar down through the two Gudgeons to align them then tightened the bolts. I then put the two pintles into the Gudgions (they were not mounted to the rudder) and by placing the rudder on a automotive floor jack I was able to move the rudder up or down and forward and backward. I manuvered the rudder into the two pintles making any adjustments with the floor jack and then when everything looked good I tightened the pintle bolts. Needless to say I did this on the hard because I had one of my pintles break. Yes the new reinforced Gudgeons are difficult to install and align.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 09/27/2024 12:49:01

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5306 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2024 : 05:05:05

End of the day, I had to replace all of the bolts. I was able to unscrew and replace the top gudgeon bolts one by one. They were stuck and a little pesky for sure.
Two of the lower gudgeon bolts broke off (that was close!), the other one was pretty stuck, but came out in one piece. Replaced the all. I added two nuts to each bottom bolt, a standard stainless steel one and a nylock nut over the top.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 09/28/2024 05:06:09

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