Catalina - Capri - 25s International Assocaition Logo(2006)  
Assn Members Area · Join
Association Forum
Association Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Forum Users | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums
 Catalina 25 Specific Forum
 Tiller Rubbing against Transom
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

Caribbean Soul
Deckhand

Member Avatar

USA
19 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/04/2020 :  18:20:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
New-to-me Catalina 25 1983 Owner here! Standard Rig, Fixed Keel. Hi everyone! I've already learned so much from you. Dry docked for a month while I read a ton!

Ordered the big manual from Cat Direct, loving the parts list the most. Learning. One thing I notice maybe you all can help...when I move the tiller to climb in the boat from the ladder, tiller rubs the ledge of the transom. This rubbing seems new. So something is newly wrong? Does it need to be lifted slightly and then tightened? Any resources on where/how/why on this before I scrape off the surface there?

THANKS ALL!

Caribbean Soul - Ithaca NY - C25 - 1983 - SR/FK - Traditional layout - #3429 - She's Fixin' a Boat - Help!! :)

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
8727 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2020 :  19:54:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Welcome Sahara! I raised my rudder a little with some fender washers on top of the upper gudgeon. As for why yours apparently lowered, have you checked the tightness of the bolts on the pintles and the gudgeons? Some loosening could cause elongation of holes and shifting of angles.

PS: Add your year and “SR/FK” to your signature—it could help in future questions.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-OUPV,
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/04/2020 20:05:19
Go to Top of Page

Caribbean Soul
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2020 :  03:36:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks so much Dave, I will figure out how to do the signature. I'm sure its the bolts, how much of space should there be, how high should I lift before tightening it, just enough so it doesn't scrape?

Caribbean Soul - Ithaca NY - C25 - 1983 - SR/FK - Traditional layout - #3429 - She's Fixin' a Boat - Help!! :)
Go to Top of Page

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3857 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2020 :  05:43:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
This rubbing seems new.


You say the boat is dry docked for a month. It could be that the rudder when in the water floats up (these rudders float) thus raising the tiller. Now that its out of the water the rudder has slid down and the tiller rubs on the transom. This could explain why you just noticed it rubbing. The fix is as Dave said. I would try placing the fender washers on the pintles to raise it first. Its just easier. That will also remove some of the up/down movement.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound


Go to Top of Page

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
8727 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2020 :  08:05:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How high? Enough to clear. The higher you make it, the less it can be tipped up, due to the traveler bar. (I tied mine up to the mainsheet when docked or anchored.)

Scott's explanation is plausible, except if your rudder is the original to your '83, it doesn't float like the foam-cored one on the '87 vintage.

If you find your pintles are movable, I'd suggest a technique described as "overdrill, fill, and re-drill." You expand the size of the holes, tape one side and fill them with slightly thickened epoxy, and after that sets up, drill the correct size for the bolts. This forms a sleeve that strengthens the pintles and prevents those holes from letting water get into the wood (or even foam) core.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-OUPV,
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.
Go to Top of Page

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3283 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2020 :  08:32:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You can also buy brass bushings from places like Ace Hardware, get them lathed to the correct inside and outside diameters and then fit them into the gudgeons. I did this on TSU when the holes elongated and it worked like a charm - made rudder movement much smoother.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas
Go to Top of Page

Caribbean Soul
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2020 :  11:16:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
great ideas! Maybe I'll tie it up while its up in the cradle and see what happens in the water in a month!

Caribbean Soul - Ithaca NY - C25 - 1983 - SR/FK - Traditional layout - #3429 - She's Fixin' a Boat - Help!! :)
Go to Top of Page

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3423 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2020 :  08:57:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote


I built up the area with a duct tape dam and filled with resin ( west systems Gflex ). It sealed up the area that was wearing. I guess I will grind it to shape and put gelcoat on it eventually.


I replaced the metal on my original tiller that connected the rudder to the tiller. Larger aluminum bar stock and they slide on this area I built up. a little grease/oil on it.

my rudder does not float, at least not as it is mounted.



Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25 SR/FK
Go to Top of Page

Lee Panza
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
443 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2020 :  09:09:51  Show Profile  Visit Lee Panza's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I wouldn't recommend spacers (washers, bushings) on the pintles for a couple of reasons. First, unless they fit so tightly on the pin that they can't fall off when you lift the rudder out, they will. Secondly, by causing the gudgeon to apply force to the pin farther from the pin's connection to its straps, you've increased the torque applied to both the pintle and the gudgeon. Think of the pin as a lever.

I'd prefer to add a shim between the tiller and the supporting step on the rudder (it could be fastened to either the bottom of the tiller or the top of the rudder step.

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)
Go to Top of Page

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
8727 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2020 :  21:35:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lee Panza

I wouldn't recommend spacers (washers, bushings) on the pintles for a couple of reasons. First, unless they fit so tightly on the pin that they can't fall off when you lift the rudder out, they will. Secondly, by causing the gudgeon to apply force to the pin farther from the pin's connection to its straps, you've increased the torque applied to both the pintle and the gudgeon. Think of the pin as a lever...
Fair enough, but I'll suggest that the welded pin-strap connection is wider than my four(?) washers raised the pin. And my newer foam-cored rudder floated off the gudgeons to the point the cotter pin held it on--higher than the washers held it. I have heard of nobody with a bent or broken pin on the pintle. Yes, the washers can fall off, but I installed my rudder on the hard in May and removed it on the hard in Oct. It took some care not to drop washers on the ground... YMMV.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-OUPV,
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/07/2020 21:46:41
Go to Top of Page

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3283 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2020 :  08:30:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Lee, the bushings were inserted (with the aid f a rubber hammer) into the gudgeons to make the elongated holes a perfect circle again. They fit tight and acted as a very smooth socket for the pintles to rotate in. They never moved when the rudder was removed.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas
Go to Top of Page

Lee Panza
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
443 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2020 :  16:14:09  Show Profile  Visit Lee Panza's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Derek: If I now understand your mod more clearly, your new bushings apparently extend farther above the gudgeon "deck" than the inverted top-hat bushings that Catalina Direct sells, thereby raising the rudder by that amount. It would also extend the lateral support around the pin. This would be a good fix.

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)
Go to Top of Page

Lee Panza
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
443 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2020 :  16:42:58  Show Profile  Visit Lee Panza's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

[quote]...I have heard of nobody with a bent or broken pin on the pintle...



Dave: Here's an old post from Leon Sisson (6/16/2002), in which he discusses the shear failure of one of his pintle pins:

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=1367&SearchTerms=damaged,pintles

Unfortunately, the image he had included is no longer an active link, but his description is more than sufficient.

Pure shear, on a pin that's well-supported all the way up to its attachment to the pintle bracket, can be bad enough, but inducing a bending moment by applying force any distance from the attachment point, especially in a loose gudgeon that could allow the pin to bend slightly, could significantly imperil a weakened pin.



The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)
Go to Top of Page

cat25
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
116 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2020 :  05:33:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
near the top of the rudder there is a ledge. attached a self stick pad that keeps the rudder high enough to stop hitting the top of the transom.

Ken
Chenango~
1990~TR~WK~C25~#6022
Stamford Ct/LI Sound
Go to Top of Page

Caribbean Soul
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2020 :  06:41:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you all! I'm headed out to try these Ideas today. Appreciated.

Caribbean Soul - Ithaca NY - C25 - 1983 - SR/FK - Traditional layout - #3429 - She's Fixin' a Boat - Help!! :)
Go to Top of Page

Caribbean Soul
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2020 :  04:13:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
all, the trick was the shim under the wood rudder fit to hit the shelf in the right spot. Apparently some previous owner replaced with a new rudder that was slightly more narrow. This worked! Thanks all!

Caribbean Soul - Ithaca NY - C25 - 1983 - SR/FK - Traditional layout - #3429 - She's Fixin' a Boat - Help!! :)
Go to Top of Page

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
8727 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2020 :  19:38:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I’m guessing you mean under the tiller, as Ken suggested—glad to hear there was an easy solution. On to the slightly harder ones!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-OUPV,
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.
Go to Top of Page

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4821 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2020 :  07:11:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Glad the experts were able to advise on this. It’s the little things sometimes that are the hardest to work out.

Have you launched your boat yet? Or is there still much to do before then?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain — Milford, CT
Go to Top of Page

captnamo
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
10 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2021 :  14:36:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Caribbean Soul -- Can you include a pic of your fix? I have a similar problem on my 1980 C25. There is nothing on my tiller that catches the notch in the rudder. Aways felt like something was missing from holding the tiller up from the top of the transom.

--Steve N.

'80 C25 "Serenity" #1746 FK Muskegon, MI

Never approach the dock faster than you want to hit it.

Edited by - captnamo on 05/28/2021 14:38:03
Go to Top of Page

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5596 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2021 :  16:02:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When my tiller started rubbing on the transom, it was because the tiller delaminated slightly between the two stainless steel plates that connect the tiller to the rudder. I suggest you take off those two plates and see what's happening under them. Perhaps the tiller is delaminating, or perhaps the bolt holes through the tiller have elongated. All it takes to make that part of the tiller delaminate is for someone to push down on the tiller. Laminated tillers are very strong when pushed from side-to-side, but they're fairly fragile when you push down.

You shouldn't have to shim anything. That might be correcting the symptom without correcting the underlying cause.

Steve Milby C&C 35 Landfall ("Captiva Wind"); Cal 25 ("Fahrvergnügen")
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 05/28/2021 16:07:12
Go to Top of Page

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3857 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2021 :  16:26:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's all the effects of old age and wear. Bolt holes elongate, pintles and gudgions wear and then the rudder sits a little lower. If your pintles are long enough you can raise the rudder back up with a few nylon washers placed on the pintles.This will raise the head of the rudder and the tiller along with it.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound


Go to Top of Page

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4821 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2021 :  18:08:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Damn, nice thread. Now you’ve got me wondering about my tiller and rudder. I don’t recall how many washers I have on my upper pintle, but if that’s going to cause a problem with stresses, I believe I have to rethink it, perhaps raise the gudgeons or adjust the location of the tiller. I’ve never even thought about it.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain — Milford, CT
Go to Top of Page

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1838 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2021 :  18:57:44  Show Profile  Visit Leon Sisson's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Missing pintle image from "Salt sailors, checked the lower pintle lately?" post back in 2002:


I have a similar sheared rusty 1/4" 'stainless steel' bolt from the tiller side plates, and a excavation into a deep pocket of rot in wooden core of 1979 rudder just below the top pintle.  Just finishing up repairing a delaminated tiller, and modifying the tiller height/angle.  I can post pics if you want them.

— Leon Sisson
Go to Top of Page

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4190 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2021 :  19:38:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mine was rubbing a little at one time. I just lifted the tiller handle slightly and tightened the wing nut down a little firmer and it's been fine ever since. Three minutes and it was fixed.

Occasionally if I accidently put a little too much downward pressure on the tiller it will begin rubbing again. I just pull it back up slightly and keep on sailing.


Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX
Go to Top of Page

captnamo
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
10 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2021 :  12:15:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Found my trouble. Wood tiller handle doesn't go all the way back to the rudder.
So, there is nothing to rest on the notch in the rudder top.




--Steve N.

'80 C25 "Serenity" #1746 FK Muskegon, MI

Never approach the dock faster than you want to hit it.
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Association Forum © since 1999 Catalina Capri 25s International Association Go To Top Of Page
Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.06
Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.