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 Balanced Rudder Catalina 25
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SKS
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153 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/14/2020 :  15:27:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've looked at the plans for balanced rudders published on the internet and also here on this site.
I understand the need to put some of the rudder surface area ahead of the pintles, but what is the purpose of having two cutouts ?
Wouldn't a single cutout of appropriate area be adequate ??
I think that's the way the Blue Water rudder is built

Here's a plan that I'm talking about.



"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

Edited by - SKS on 01/14/2020 15:33:53

GaryB
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Response Posted - 01/14/2020 :  20:50:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SKS

I've looked at the plans for balanced rudders published on the internet and also here on this site.
I understand the need to put some of the rudder surface area ahead of the pintles, but what is the purpose of having two cutouts ?
Wouldn't a single cutout of appropriate area be adequate ??
I think that's the way the Blue Water rudder is built

Here's a plan that I'm talking about.







I suppose you could build it like the lower picture but I believe the purpose of the area between 11 7/8" and 17 3/8" in the top picture is to keep the gap between the little "fin" on the rear of the hull and the front edge of the rudder as small as possible so as to not create turbulence. Also adds to the area in front of the of the pintles.

Not sure I explained it very well and there's a good chance I';m completely off base but thought I'd have a go of it. LOL


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GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 01/14/2020 20:51:23
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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/14/2020 :  21:43:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I bought the fiberglass “2-step” version... The upper step, under the pintle and above the waterline, puts the leading edge closer to the transom to reduce drag below the waterline. It doesn’t create any significant balance. The lower step goes under the skeg (little fin) and provides the surface that balances the helm—like power steering!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-OUPV,
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/14/2020 21:51:29
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GaryB
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Response Posted - 01/14/2020 :  22:59:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

I bought the fiberglass “2-step” version... The upper step, under the pintle and above the waterline, puts the leading edge closer to the transom to reduce drag below the waterline. It doesn’t create any significant balance. The lower step goes under the skeg (little fin) and provides the surface that balances the helm—like power steering!


Yeah, what Dave said. I knew I wasn't saying it right! LOL


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GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 01/14/2020 23:00:46
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bigelowp
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Response Posted - 01/15/2020 :  08:06:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My balanced rudder (Ruddercraft via Catalina Direct in 2007)does not have the two steps but looks like the picture. If you want to look at it I'm also at Cove, across the drive area from you to the far left, second row from drive area -- name of boat is on the shrink wrap.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT
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SKS
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153 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2020 :  12:52:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bigelowp

My balanced rudder (Ruddercraft via Catalina Direct in 2007)does not have the two steps but looks like the picture. If you want to look at it I'm also at Cove, across the drive area from you to the far left, second row from drive area -- name of boat is on the shrink wrap.



Thanks. I'll take a look. Right now, I'm thinking I'll just modify my existing rudder.
It needs to be spruced up anyway, I might as well have something to keep me busy. I'm not getting much skiing done.

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut
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RandyAmy
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Response Posted - 01/16/2020 :  07:35:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Has anyone here built one of these?
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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
8727 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2020 :  08:53:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SKS

Thanks. I'll take a look. Right now, I'm thinking I'll just modify my existing rudder.
It needs to be spruced up anyway, I might as well have something to keep me busy. I'm not getting much skiing done.

In case you haven't already figured it out, and assuming yours is like my original '85 rudder and all previous years, a few notes about what you have: The "head" down to the lower pintle is fiberglass around a wood core--below that is the solid fiberglass "blade". The head tends to absorb water from a split between the two sides, and possibly from the holes for the pintle and tiller bolts. Rotting wood is the cause of fairly common breaks at the lower pintle, which absorbs the torque from pressure on the blade, especially from heeling in big chop. The blade can snap completely off, right at that pintle--suddenly putting your boat out of control. Frankly, I don't think it's worth trying to "modify"--your effort would be better spend making a new one.

Some folks here (including me) replaced those rudders before they broke--some after... The "two-step" rudder sold by CD is fiberglass with a foam core that is not subject to rot (although it's a good idea to protect it from freezing). It's much lighter weight--in fact almost wants to float off the gudgeons (cotter pin required). The one-step version pictured (made by Ruddercraft and sold by CD) is solid HDPE plastic. I've seen reports on a few sailing forums of that rudder snapping in two under stress, which might be why a thicker "blue water" version was brought out after a few years.

Nuff said...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-OUPV,
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/16/2020 08:54:36
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SKS
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Response Posted - 01/16/2020 :  17:47:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

quote:
Originally posted by SKS

Thanks. I'll take a look. Right now, I'm thinking I'll just modify my existing rudder.
It needs to be spruced up anyway, I might as well have something to keep me busy. I'm not getting much skiing done.

In case you haven't already figured it out, and assuming yours is like my original '85 rudder and all previous years, a few notes about what you have: The "head" down to the lower pintle is fiberglass around a wood core--below that is the solid fiberglass "blade". The head tends to absorb water from a split between the two sides, and possibly from the holes for the pintle and tiller bolts. Rotting wood is the cause of fairly common breaks at the lower pintle, which absorbs the torque from pressure on the blade, especially from heeling in big chop. The blade can snap completely off, right at that pintle--suddenly putting your boat out of control. Frankly, I don't think it's worth trying to "modify"--your effort would be better spend making a new one.

Some folks here (including me) replaced those rudders before they broke--some after... The "two-step" rudder sold by CD is fiberglass with a foam core that is not subject to rot (although it's a good idea to protect it from freezing). It's much lighter weight--in fact almost wants to float off the gudgeons (cotter pin required). The one-step version pictured (made by Ruddercraft and sold by CD) is solid HDPE plastic. I've seen reports on a few sailing forums of that rudder snapping in two under stress, which might be why a thicker "blue water" version was brought out after a few years.

Nuff said...




OK, OK.. Got it. I'm going to buy the new balanced rudder from CD.
BUT....evidently the new rudder that CD offers doesn't have any foam or wood in it. It's all fiberglass made with fiberglass stringers for internal support to hold the fiberglass skin. It seems to be at least the third design generation from the original with two generations of design enhancemnets. And it has the double cutout.
So, here goes..................

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

Edited by - SKS on 01/17/2020 14:37:09
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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
8727 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2020 :  08:49:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry if I put a hole in your checking account... But good choice--you'll like it.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-OUPV,
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.
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bigelowp
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Response Posted - 01/18/2020 :  11:20:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
FYI I have the HDPE "Bluewater" version and have had no structural issues. I would think for sailing on Long Island Sound, or most other coastal waters, any HDPE would work well -- offshore or heavy air areas, maybe not

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT
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Lee Panza
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443 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2020 :  16:38:17  Show Profile  Visit Lee Panza's Homepage  Reply with Quote
For whatever it might contribute to this discussion, and for the benefit of anyone in the future who pulls this thread up from the archives, here are the dimensions from the Foss Foam (Florida) rudder I purchased. This shows how the upper step fills the space beneath the lower pintle/gudgeon. It also shows the relative dimensions on my '84, indicating where the hardware was placed. The height I positioned it leaves a gap between the skeg of the hull and the rudder, which could catch debris, but that's somewhat irrelevant as there will be a substantial gap whenever the rudder is off dead center anyway. The flip-side of this issue is the clearance afforded under the traveler, allowing the tiller to be raised.





BTW, it gets a pretty good workout every time I sail on SF Bay in the summertime, and it's been holding up without any indication of stress. It sure has made a difference in handling the boat!


The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)
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cshaw
Captain

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460 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2021 :  17:26:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Last weekend during the last leg of a race that it looked like we might win, the rudder on Confetti snapped in two at the lower pintle. Confetti is 45 years old and gets raced hard, so I think I got my money's worth out of the rudder!! I have been shopping for rudders and have narrowed things down to two rudders: The balanced all fiber glass rudder from CD, and the foam filled balanced rudder from FOSS Foam. Both have mostly the same type outline as the two double step rudders in this thread. I saw that Stinkpotter bought the CD fiberglass rudder and Lee Panza bought the FOSS Foam rudder Any comparison comments from anyone that has one of either of these and how they are holding up?

Many thanks!!

Chuck

Chuck Shaw
Confetti
Cat 25, hull#1
1976 FK/TR
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Voyager
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Response Posted - 05/12/2021 :  18:57:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
@cshaw, I inherited Mr Stinkpotter’s rudder and I can testify that it has been problem-free since I bought the boat back in the mid-2000s.

I always remove the rudder immediately after she gets hauled in the fall, and the rudder lives in my heated garage all winter, so it never had a chance to freeze up.

I’ve run downwind in a following sea (SE winds running down the entire length of Long Island Sound) on several occasions and never felt like the rudder was ever in danger of snapping. The Sound literally turns into a washing machine under those conditions.

In fact, I was more concerned about my teak & ash tiller handle than the rudder. I carry a home made spare made from 5/4” oak.

I did have a few gudgeon bolts work free once, but a wrench and a little lock tight took care of that. I’d give it an endorsement provided that you check each component in the system: gudgeons, pintles, tiller, backing plates and bolts.

Good luck with your decision.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain — Milford, CT
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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
8727 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2021 :  22:05:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Chuck... What I bought from CD was probably more like the Foss (and may have been theirs)—I loved it but put it to less of a test than you do. Looking at the current descriptions, I might choose CD’s latest version for strength.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-OUPV,
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/12/2021 22:07:35
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cshaw
Captain

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Response Posted - 05/14/2021 :  16:21:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks to everyone for the replies on the rudder options for Confetti! I finally decided on getting the all fiberglass rudder from CD. Model E2213. It comes with the 1/2" pintles. Confetti's current pintles are 3/8" and the pintles and gudgeons were not damaged by the rudder snapping in two. However, they are 45 years old, and I am not feeling good about pressing my luck!! So I bought the 1/2" 4 hole gudgeons also. CD initially refused to sell me the 1/2" 4 hole gudgeons since their paperwork said my boat had the 3 hole gudgeons???? I assured them the 4 hole gudgeons have been in place all of the 45 years I have sailed her! The sale person would not back down however since their records said the 3 hole gudgeons were the ones I was supposed to have, and the 4 hole 1/2" ones did not specifically call out the 4 hole were ok to use, but were fine for Cat 22? She said she would have to clear the sale with CD Tech support, which is near impossible to get to answer the phone since they only have ONE person working in Tech Support.... Somehow, she was able to talk to Tech support and they confirmed that the boat was bought in 1976 (built in 1975) and more than likely the 4 hole gudgeons were installed then, since the Cat 22's were using the 4 hole gudgeons.

Bottom line is CD IS concerned about sending parts that are not correct for a boat. However, Confetti is not a production boat so the paperwork for a "standard boat does not always fit.

Hopefully I will get my new rudder and gudgeons next week and I will be able to get underway again!!

Cheers!!

Chuck Shaw
Confetti
Cat 25, hull#1
1976 FK/TR
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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
8727 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2021 :  19:03:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Chuck... You're going to love the balanced design! Some say it eliminates weather helm, which racers expect and generally want--that's not true. It reduces the force on the tiller for turning--as has been said many times here, like power steering. The boat still has whatever helm balance it had without "rudder balance"--like the power steering on a Porsche 911. In your case, I suspect it'll take a little getting used to... We'll be waiting for a review!

Funny you couldn't convince the CD folks yours was the pre-production boat (#0001)--the tribulations of owning a legend (on top of being a legend)! But kudos to them for being finicky about what they sell to whom, right down to the hull number. How many suppliers are that careful??

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic, CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, ex-OUPV,
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing when I can).

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/14/2021 19:12:06
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bigelowp
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Response Posted - 05/15/2021 :  14:38:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Chuck:

I bet only a few boats, such as C22, C25, C27 and C30 had any "pre-producton" examples sold. I would think some engineer at Catalina would want to see your boat for just that purpose. I commend them for sticking to the facts they have RE hull number, etc. -- rare in today's world. But, YOU have THE boat that started it all -- they should be jazzed about that alone!

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT
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NautiC25
Admiral

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Response Posted - 05/26/2021 :  08:17:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have the first Foss as I sent my 89 rudder to them to be constructed. I don't have any experience with a non-balanced rudder, but can say I don't have helm issues and I have over a foot cut off my tiller for more cockpit room. So my leverage on the rudder is significantly less.

1989 C-25 TR/WK #5894
Miss Behavin'
Sittin' in LCYC on Canyon Lake, Texas
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