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Tough conditions!

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/08/2005 : 10:44:24

Went sailing last night on the S2 in 20+ knots of wind, gusting higher, seas 4 to 6 at 4 seconds and very very rough. Walls of white water. Ducking spray. Heeled to 30 under small headsail and reefed main. Light rain at times. Then it got dark. This was race practice with 1/2 of our Newport - Ensenada crew.

As I was sitting on the weather rail, eating a snack, and ducking the big waves I was thinking that out of 2.5 million people in San Diego, only 2 were out sailing. We were enjoying it, relaxed between fighting big round-ups, eating, drinking, and enjoying conversation.

For sure, only 1 out of a million people would have been relaxed and having fun in those conditions. I was fortunate to be out with the other one!

Indiscipline 1978 FK SR #398

Edited by - on

Tony Dillon
Navigator

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USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2005 : 11:04:37

Cool!!!

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Esteban
Navigator

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139 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2005 : 11:21:24

Jim - you're nuts!

Next time I'm in San Diego I'd love to bum a ride.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2005 : 13:36:53

Well if you liked that you'll love today and tomorrow! I think I'll take a rain check though and watch the Masters..

Small Craft Advisory in effect

TodayWind W 15 to 20 kt with occasional gusts to 25 kt this afternoon. Wind waves 2 to 3 ft. Swell W 5 to 7 ft at 12 seconds.
TonightWind NW 15 to 20 kt. Wind waves 3 ft. Swell W 5 to 7 ft at 12 seconds.
Sat
Wind NW 15 to 25 kt. Wind waves 3 to 4 ft or less. Swell W 5 to 7 ft at 12 seconds.
Sat NightWind NW 15 to 20 kt...becoming NW 10 to 15 kt after midnight. Wind waves 2 to 3 ft. Swell W 5 to 7 ft.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2005 : 17:56:59

>"4 to 6 at 4 seconds... Light rain at times... then it got dark."

Hmmm... sure sounds like a typical summer day up here... forecast this weekend is for 17-20' seas. (No, I won't be out in them).

Edited by - on

jlguthri
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2005 : 19:04:03

I've not had my 25 out in the "big pond" yet...
out of curosity, at what sea heights do these boats "get unconfortable?" I'm curious to opinions..

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2005 : 20:11:19

"at what sea heights do these boats "get unconfortable?"

IMHO: Depends more on on wave frequency and shape than wave size alone... toss direction of travel into the mix too.

Heck, 15' seas aren't bad if they are 20 seconds apart. On the other hand, a nearly vertical 3' chop could be quite uncomfortable. As far as point of sail, seas that might be quite comfortable on a run can turn into a jarring experience if you're beating into them.

A C25 can handle most any sea state, as long as it isn't breaking. Breaking seas more than 3' or so... not a good place to be in a lightly built boat.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2005 : 21:56:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClamBeach
 "at what sea heights do these boats "get unconfortable?"

IMHO: Depends more on on wave frequency and shape than wave size alone... toss direction of travel into the mix too.

Heck, 15' seas aren't bad if they are 20 seconds apart. On the other hand, a nearly vertical 3' chop could be quite uncomfortable. As far as point of sail, seas that might be quite comfortable on a run can turn into a jarring experience if you're beating into them.

A C25 can handle most any sea state, as long as it isn't breaking. Breaking seas more than 3' or so... not a good place to be in a lightly built boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I dunno, Clam... 6' at 4 seconds is pretty close to breaking, if it isn't breaking. More power to Jim, but I wouldn't be "relaxed" out there--particularly when it got dark! I've been in 4-5' at about 3 seconds on Long Island Sound (sometimes called square waves), and a C'25 is not happy in that stuff! Nor was I.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2005 : 22:23:39

Remember, I was in the S2. A 28 foot boat, much stiffer than ours, heavier rigging, bigger mast, inboard diesel. Weighs over a ton more. In very good condition with all the race safety equipment on board. I think even more sturdy than a C30.

I was right at the limits of my ability to handle the boat. It was good experience and we both know what we can handle if it gets ugly in the race. Not likely to be much worse than last night.

It was actually more difficult reaching in beam winds with the swell on the rear quarter coming back in compared to close hauled going out. Its hard to sheet out in the gusts, it was too dark to see the waves coming, and a big wave plus big gust would practically knock the boat down and cause a big round up.

Any more wind and we would have to drop the main or genny, glad we didn't have to do that.

I could have got my C25 back in, in these conditions, glad I was on the bigger boat.

At least the waves were not breaking in the Mission Bay channel. In my experience they have to be 8+ for that.

Jacklines are going to be added before the race.

I was wearing foulies, harness, life jacket, and personal strobe.

Oh yeah

Any NA member who comes to San Diego is always invited to sail with me and/or Fleet 7. You got a boat here. Just ask. I'll even come pick you up!

In my experience the C25 is comfortable in 2 to 3 foot seas at 4 seconds as long as there is wind. In 4 to 6 at 4 seconds its beginning to get questionable (as in "what am I doing out here?") Once again, as long as there is wind. Perfect sailing is 12 to 15 knots. I'm running the 110 above that, most likely with the flattening reef in, perhaps the first reet. Above 20 to 25 I'd probably have the 2nd reef and my 60% storm jib. Bigger waves at long periods (like greater than 10 - 12 seconds) are fun and not a problem at all IN DEEP WATER. I've been in 7 to 8 foot swells and enjoyed the day.

I don't much enjoy a flat sea, sunny sky and wind less than 5. SO I go fishing on those days, or practice spinnaker sets.

Edited by - JimB517 on 04/08/2005 22:30:34

henfling
1st Mate

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USA
26 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2005 : 01:24:05

We were out sailing the SF Bay on Wednesday April 6th with the Berkeley marina registering 26 knots of wind and enough wave action to cause spray over the boat and some down the companionway. Not many other sailboats out but we did have to watch out for ferry boats, tugs, and a very larger container ship. They are moving a lot faster than they seem...With the gusts and the waves, we rounded up twice, fortunately not in front of any large ship approaching us. We tried motoring some but the long shaft Honda kept popping out of the water because of the waves, even with both of us on the transom. Still had a great outing.
Catalina WK #521

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2005 : 12:00:06

Those type of conditions were the reason I moved up to Triska. With wind against an outgoing tide the chop can seem huge. You know your in the thick of it when the 100lb outboard on the stern is out of the water 1/2 the time and goes weightless at the top of its wild arch. When your crew starts to revolt and all you can do is hold on with white nuckles. Time to call it a day before you have equipment failure or hurt someone. Fun to some terror to others. But on the topic of wave hight people are often wrong. Just for information here is the correct scoop. The wave is messured from the back to the top not from the trough to the top. Looking at a wave from trough to top will actualy be almost double its true size.

Edited by - on

gnorgan
Admiral

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USA
563 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2005 : 14:39:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Small Craft Advisory in effect

TodayWind W 15 to 20 kt with occasional gusts to 25 kt this afternoon. Wind waves 2 to 3 ft. Swell W 5 to 7 ft at 12 seconds.
TonightWind NW 15 to 20 kt. Wind waves 3 ft. Swell W 5 to 7 ft at 12 seconds.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I spent the better part of Friday putting in my new Matrix 17 "fish finding system" and doing some much needed rewiring / electrical work that needed to get done. Then I installed a couple of Shaeffer stainless straps (6inch) under my furler so that I could rake the mast back and go to weather better.
Every time I have wanted to do these jobs, Jim shows up and says "Let's go sailing" so off I go

and the job waits....

Then late afternoon my wife and I headed out onto the Pacific (see "Tonight" above) but after about an hour of bouncing and slamming through some really choppy conditions, we turned back to sail Misson Bay until sunset. There wasn't another boat out there on the Pacific (probably because of first line in quote above

)......no sailboats on a Friday afternoon/evening. Incredible!!!! Good wind in the bay and only one other sailboat came out to join us. Again, incredible!!! As Jim says, all those people, all those expensive boats, and no one wants to play.
Oh, well. There were some rowing teams out practicing so we shadowed them and raced them across the bay.
And the fishfinder works great!! Saw lots of fish so will have to get out the fishing pole and do what Jim does on light air days.
Way cool!!!!

Edited by - gnorgan on 04/09/2005 14:44:21

gnorgan
Admiral

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USA
563 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2005 : 14:59:28

I raked my mast back!! The mast actually looked toooo far forward and I wasn't pointing to weather worth a darn.
Jim, next time out we'll have to find out if raking my mast back will make my wing keel more competitive with your fin keel upwind. I had a slight bit more weather helm and the boat "seemed" to point higher. Looking up at the masthead vane I noticed that the feather was lined up on the index cards and was not luffing the jib. Before the extension the feather would always have to be about 2 degrees out from the card in order not to get luffing.
So in my opinion, without your boat to compare to, I'd say I may be pointing around 2 to 3 degrees higher now. Every little bit helps.
BTW, today I promised I'd spend some time with my sister and her husband so we're doing that instead of sailing.
Next weekend may be spoken for, too, but will try to get out of that in favor of sailing. I'd like to sail to SD Bay again, anchoring at La Playa Cove soon.
Will have to post some pictures of the fishfinder install. I installed it under the sink below all the wiring mess, fastened to the inside of the fiberglass below the sink and bedded in vaseline....it's working so far

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2005 : 10:23:16

Hey Gary, nice job on the boat projects. Can't wait to "brush" with Classical Cat and see if the rake helped pointing. Next weekend is the last before the race. Sure to be down practicing. Let me know when you're going to be there.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2005 : 21:22:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by gnorgan
 I raked my mast back!! The mast actually looked toooo far forward and I wasn't pointing to weather worth a darn.
Jim, next time out we'll have to find out if raking my mast back will make my wing keel more competitive with your fin keel upwind. I had a slight bit more weather helm and the boat "seemed" to point higher.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A rigger (and very experience racer) once explained to me that a little weather helm is good for boat speed and pointing--I think because the few degrees of helm that corrects it holds the keel at an angle of attack that's slightly to leeward of the direction of the boat, so that the keel is pushing the boat (and mast) slightly more upright. Something like that... Of course, at some point excessive weather helm causes more drag than lift. If this theory is right, the boat might benefit from raking back because of the resulting weather helm, rather than the weather helm being a side-effect.

I also consider slight weather helm to be good for safety, supporting the principle that if you let go, the boat stops. That's my preference. I had to have my fixed backstay shortened to get the mast far enough back to get just a little weather helm.

Edited by - on

gnorgan
Admiral

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USA
563 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2005 : 23:26:19

Good to hear from you Dave. When I raced a Prindle 16 catamaran the common practice was to rake the mast back in order to point better upwind. That, of course, decreased your ability to go off the wind but I've been sailing the C25 downwind (not dead downwind, of course) with good boat speed all along. I have an adjustable backstay already so regularly adjust tension on the rig that way. Your reply helps justify what I've done and am looking forward to "brushing" off Jim's fin keel very soon. Experimentation is good for the soul and good for boat speed

Jim, I will try to come down Friday night and sail and stay over and sail Saturday also.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2005 : 10:55:39

Gary - I hope you took your motor home for service. If not, you don't have to worry about an oil change any more......

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gnorgan
Admiral

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USA
563 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2005 : 00:07:34

Whoops! Forgot to let you know I DID take it home. Learned how to change the oil and the gear oil the right way. Did both the 8hp and the 2hp at the same time Sunday afternoon. Gapped the plugs, checked the jets, will buy a replacement belt for the 8hp tomorrow from a local dealer. Will grease all the joints and pivot points.
Might pull off the prop and replace the shear pin with a new one.
Already did the gas filter.
Anything else to do? (besides get it back on the boat and go sailing)
Speaking of back, I severly pulled /threw out my lower back lifting the 8hp out of the car when I got home. Just now able to walk around upright. I have to invent a way to handle the heavy motor without lifting it. I used the davit lift gizmo I have to get the motor off the boat and onto the dock cart. Now to move it into the back of the car/truck and out again.....

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Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2005 : 00:57:19

Gary,
Did you check to see if your engine was on the recall list for replacing the flywheel? Taking mine in next week.
Joe

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2005 : 09:57:55

>"Now to move it into the back of the car/truck and out again...."

IMHO: No safe way to get a motor in/out of the trunk of a car without risking injury. The 'liftover' on the trunk lip will get you.

I have a home-built motor 'dolly' I use to move the engine around which keeps it in a vertical position. Going into the back of the truck I keep the powerhead high and setup the dolly right next to the tailgate to avoid as much lift as possible... kinda tilt it in.

I think if a somebody made a small engine with lifting handles and maybe even a hoist point they would sell like hotcakes. Should send a letter to a few mfg's.

After all, it's not like an 8hp outboard really needs to be designed in a wind tunnel.
Toasters yes, small outboards no.

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