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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

RUDDER VERSION

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RSHOOTER
Navigator

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USA
101 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/25/2005 : 08:01:21

I have a 1999 C250, Wing Keel. How can I tell which Generation Rudder that I have? Ida Sailor offers two high lift rudders one fixed and the other kick-up. Both are 69 inches long. Any opinions on their performance and which is preferable? Thanks.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2005 : 08:56:27

Roger, a '99 boat was shipped with the 2nd generation (12" wide) or it could have the 3rd (16" wide)if it was upgraded.

I can't recall any critiques to the forum on the Ida rudder, so don't have a clue as to performance.

Is the rudder you have now unsatisfactory because of too much torque? The 2nd generation that was shipped with your boat has adequate control but wasn't a good combo with the wheel because of the poor steering ratio of the wheel. Do you have tiller or wheel? If tiller, a balanced rudder would be needed to deal with the torque. If wheel, consider most of the problems with it rather than the rudder.

The Edson small boat steering unit doesn't have a steering ratio suitable to large control unbalanced rudders.

If having the wheel and wanting to deal with the torque issue, it can be dealt with without changing the rudder but before going farther, do you have the wheel or tiller? If the wheel, does it have a single control cable or two? Those answers will help determine your rudder needs.

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RSHOOTER
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USA
101 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2005 : 15:38:10

I have the Tiller...concerned about toruque and it seems the Rudder I have is longer than the keel. I appreciate the width dimensions and will do some measuring. Any thoughts on why Catalina quit offering the kick up rudder for the wing keel? Thanks.

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RSHOOTER
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USA
101 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2005 : 15:38:14

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2005 : 16:30:30

Roger...

Catalina discontinued the kick up rudder because of too many failures which they blamed on improper operation but which I believe was due to a poor hold down design that caused the rudders to lag aft and then experience too great of loads.

If experiencing too great of torque for the tiller, your choices are to upgrade to the balanced 3rd which should solve the problems with a rudder about the same length as the keel, or as outlined in your post, choose an alternative rudder like the Ida.

If you go that way, please offer a performance report which can be passed on to others.

There is possibly one other direction, if the rudder depth of the 2nd you have now is a concern, it could be cut off and a wing added to the bottom.

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RSHOOTER
Navigator

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USA
101 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2005 : 17:19:19

Thank you Arlyn, I will do some measuring and experimenting and report back. I am inclined to try the Ida kick up but want to talk with them first.

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Jim Mc
1st Mate

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USA
43 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2005 : 22:58:12

I plan to upgrade the existing Edson pull-pull steering on my 2000 WK with Arlyn's kit. I could use some advice on upgrading my 2nd generation rudder. I understand that I may have three options:Catalina's 3rd generation, Ida Sailors fixed rudder and their kick up version. Even though I have a wing keel I am leaning toward the kick up version. I seems it would give more clearance when trailer launching and also allow you to ease into a sandy beach without without worring about rudder damage. Last summer I took the opportunity to dive under the boat and observe how wave action affected it. I was surprised how often the rudder was lower than the keel as the boat bobbed up and down due to wave action. As a note on the fixed Ida Sailor rudder, a 250 owner in San Franciso told me he thought the quality was good and the retrofit easy. While the rudder did not eliminate his weather helm issues it improved the situation especially with wind gusts. Any coments would be welcome.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2005 : 00:21:21

Jim,

I've argued since Catalina dropped the beaching rudder that doing so was unfortunate. When looking at the trailer cruiser market, many of the designs offer beaching rudders. They fit the character and needs of the boats much better than a blade rudder.

A beaching rudder is a priority item that I'm not willing to give up. They offer more flexibility and safety.

This is especially true for the wheel steered boat. Removing the rudder in prep for pulling out requires the steering arm to be released adding to the difficulty of leaning over the transom to pull its pin. Also, a balanced rudder is also a balancing act to get the balanced portion under the boat and the pintles lined up.

I exchanged the 3rd for the 2nd while at anchor and because the 3rd has such buoyancy and has the balanced portion that requires contorting the rudder to ship/unship... it is tough to deal with. It was tough taking it off, I can't imagine putting it on.

This shouldn't be a problem with the wing keel design which should launch with the rudder in place but it becomes a huge issue on the water ballast and I'm guessing why Catalina puts a shorter version of the 3rd generation on it. And, the shorter version has inadequate control. Catalina I'm sure knows that if they put the longer version on the water ballast that it would require shipping/unshipping for launching/retreiving and the hassle that would ensue... so they have compromised control for launching ability with a shipped rudder by making the water ballast rudder a foot shorter than the wing keel rudder. It works for fair weather sailors who don't have an auto pilot but not for the cruiser.

Edited by - on

Jim Mc
1st Mate

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USA
43 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2005 : 00:41:20

Arlyn:
What is the lead time for ordering your steering kit? I should need one about the 1st of april when the snow at Lake Tahoe has melted enough to allow access to my boat.

Jim

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2005 : 08:47:05

I have two kits ready for shipment... so no lead time right now... in fact, I've been fortunate in getting supplies so far and haven't had any lead time.

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frogger
Navigator

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USA
184 Posts

Response Posted - 02/26/2005 : 11:45:47

I received my kit yesterday (Friday). Now just to get it installed. I have no plans to change my rudder. Boat stays in 10 ft of water - just have to stay away from hazards. This is a preemptive measure as I've had no problems controlling my C250 WK with wheel steering.

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.