Association Forum - added ballast to the wing keel

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

added ballast to the wing keel

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

acierno
1st Mate

Member Avatar

USA
62 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/28/2002 : 13:33:13

My 250wing keel seems to really be under ballasted compared to the 1983 c25 fin keel i used to own. has anyone added any weight to the wing keel successfully? when i had her out of the water last week, the place on top of each wing was pretty flat (i thoought it would have bulbs, but it really didn't) and i think i could through bolt 50 or 100 pound plates on top of either wing. any thoughts on this?

ron

Edited by - on

MarkTM
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
178 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2002 : 17:30:24

Ron,

This doesn't sound very aerodynamic to me. I've heard of many C250 wing keel owners putting up to 200 pounds of sand (in bags) in the bilge . . . this more to lower the bow. I wonder if Catalina Yachts thinks this model is ballasted properly. You are not the first I've heard complain.

Mark Melchior
C250wb "Lorelei" #384
[url="http://www.texassailor.com/"]<img src="http://www.texassailor.com/texas.gif " border=0>[/url]
(click flag to visit Central Texas Sailor)

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2002 : 18:10:38

"I wonder if Catalina Yachts thinks this model is ballasted properly. You are not the first I've heard complain."

Maybe that's why Steve had such a problem with his C250K when we raced last Saturday in 16 to 24 knot winds....I was single-handing with a single-reefed main and a 110 up, and was never overpowered (C25 TRFK)
Derek

Edited by - on

acierno
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2002 : 23:47:20

yes, i agree re. lack of aerodynamics. the increased drag would be less so if i bevelled the front top of the plates, and i think i would be willing to give up a little resistance to stabilize her a bit. i'm both glad and disappointed to hear others feeling this way. i've lost a few return visits from novice sailing company who were a bit taken aback by the sudden 20-25 degree heel and massive weather helm (my daughter seems to think its great fun, though). i would be interested in hearing from others about this topic to see what proportion of us have actually thought this problematic.

ron

Edited by - on

darkpup
Deckhand

Members Avatar

10 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2002 : 12:47:01

Is the problem actually an under ballasted C250 Wk or is it the difference between a Wk and Fk design?

I've seen some comparisons between fin/swing keel boats and water ballasted boats. The mathematical comparison showed that by placing the weight further away from the boat gave the boat a greater mechanical advantage in self righting. I'd love to attach the web site that has the comparison on it, but the site was/is hosted by sites.netscape.net and I can't get there at the moment.

The C250 wing keel has a draft of 3'5" and the C25 fin keel has a draft of 4' (or so). Is the under ballasted symptoms of the C250 wk a weight issue or an issue with where the weight is positioned?

Jason Wyatt
Aegir's Wind #1535 C22 sk
Roseville, Ca

Edited by - on

MarkTM
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
178 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2002 : 13:34:16

Jason, you cannot compare the C25 and C250 as they are very different hull forms. It is even difficult to compare the C250 wing and centerboard models because of their different ballast types, freeboard, and shroud placement (even though the hull forms are the same). Although the factory's first brochures showed a fin keel model, to my knowledge none have ever been produced. The newer brochures do not show a fin keel option.

Mark Melchior
C250wb "Lorelei" #384
[url="http://www.texassailor.com/"]<img src="http://www.texassailor.com/texas.gif " border=0>[/url]
(click flag to visit Central Texas Sailor)

Edited by - on

darkpup
Deckhand

Members Avatar

10 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2002 : 16:16:41

Mark,

I'm a bit confused. Ron's first message was about his C250 Wk that feels under ballasted when compared against his 1983 C25 Fk. My comments were suggesting that the feeling Ron has about his under ballasted C250 Wk may not be a ballast issue, but instead could be a design difference between his newer C250 Wk and his older C25 Fk.

Does that make sense?

Jason Wyatt
Aegir's Wind #1535 C22 sk
Roseville, Ca

Edited by - on

MarkTM
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
178 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2002 : 17:09:18

Jason, I follow you. Maybe I shouldn't have addressed my message to you, since I was really just commenting in general and I can see now that I was making the same point that you were . . . namely, that the two boats (C25 v. C250) are VERY DIFFERENT. They may as well have been manufactured by different companies. I would expect the C250 to respond very differently under sail than the C25, regardless of keel configuration.

That said, I do suspect that the C250K is under-ballasted a bit (based on my own ride aboard a C250K and the comments of C250K owners). Ron commented above about the "massive" weatherhelm of the C250 at higher angles of heel. Again, the hull form comes into play. Fortunately for those of us with the centerboard model, we can rake our centerboards to help reduce weatherhelm without any significant additional leeway. Although I'm not in to the scientific aspects of this, I understand that raking the centerboard moves the center of laterial resistance towards the stern, thus reducing weatherhelm. Check out this link: http://www.ionet.net/~mmyc/centeref.htm

Regardless of what you call it, I do know that when I rake my centerboard in higher winds, the boat can be balanced when I've exhausted all available sail controls. It allows me to remain balanced at higher angles of heel. This is just not possible on a fixed keel boat. This has been my experience.

Mark Melchior
C250wb "Lorelei" #384
[url="http://www.texassailor.com/"]<img src="http://www.texassailor.com/texas.gif " border=0>[/url]
(click flag to visit Central Texas Sailor)

Edited by - on

Dave Seely
1st Mate

Members Avatar

46 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2002 : 23:19:04

Jason may have a good idea here. If you could get someone to make a 4" shim to fit between the keel and the hull and 4" longer keel bolts, it would probably give much better results than adding weight to the keel. The only obvious drawback I can imagine is trailering might be a problem.

Edited by - on

acierno
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2002 : 23:42:05

thanks for your comments. i really enjoy this site--very helpful, very fast.
well, in response to jason i would agree that the lower the weight the better in so far as self-righting goes, matter of gravity center. my comparison with my old c25 was meant more in terms of what is a comfortable, stable sailboat and what is not, as opposed to expectations of similar sailing "feel." the idea of shimming the entire wing keel to drop it lower is intriguing. i have emailed catalina about my first question, but have heard nothing back. i wonder how difficult that would be, but i also wonder if that would really be better than just bolting some streamlined (ie bevelled) plates on the top or bottom of the wings?

ron

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2002 : 14:13:54

Mark is on target here that the boats are quite different. The ballast ratio of the c250 being less than the c25. The hull shape required for a water ballast boat had some surprizes (remember that the wing keel shares this form).

The sailplan is much differant with the c250 having a big engine in its main. This engine needs to be throttled back much earlier than other designs like the c25. Reefing becomes much more than an occassional task during a blow...

Not having a wing, my comments are going to be winging it but are based on observations others have made on this board for several years. Mark is also right, the water ballast has a real advantage in its ability to balance using the center board... So, what can be done to the wing?

For those wanting better handling....read all that you can find about the subject of boat balance, weather helm, rudder balance, etc. A fundamental knowledge of these will go a long way to solving the handling mysteries of any boat. Read, Bill Holcombs "Weather Helm" article found on the associations web site. Boat balance is dealt well with in the Annapoilis Book of Sailing.

After your reading, you will likely realize that your task is going to focus on moving the CE forward. According to other wing owners, the best effort was to eliminate the aft down posture which rakes the mast too far aft. So, your added weight your thinking of needs likely to be as far forward as possible. Others have done this in the form of sandbags in the V berth locker far forward, some have shortened their forestay, others have added or moved their batteries forward...

There are other finer points of sail trim that will help, but the two biggies are reducing power in the main and reducing aft mast rake.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

Edited by - on

acierno
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2002 : 09:36:47

thank you arlyn, i will start with teh simplest ideas first--forward ballast, etc. note that the higher powered main, coupled with swept back spreaders, also limit how far you can depower it as well--sort of alot of factors working against "comfortable" sailing with these suckers. i won'tinfuriate the list by describing how surprisingly stable the macgregor 26 i was taken out on yesterday was.

ron

Edited by - on

jkey6
1st Mate

Members Avatar

71 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2002 : 20:32:40

The square bilge hull form takes a lot of getting used to. After years on my canoe bottomed C22, I had strong habits that had to be broken.

I read all I could about proper sail trim, I stopped the guests from sitting in the stern rail seats (this is a big one), I added 120 lbs of sand in the v berth locker, learned to trim to sail flat and found it was much faster when flatter and today I think that the boat sails great. Remember, reef early, you do not want to be excessively heeled, if you want to go fast in this boat.

Also, as for the Macgregor, race against that Mcgreggor first chance.

Edited by - on

acierno
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2002 : 11:29:09

thanks for the tips, will let you know how it works out

ron

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2002 : 12:50:14

I agree with Jamie. Every boat has its own, unique sailing qualities, based on its design. By design, some are more tender than others. That doesn't make one better than the other. It just means they are different, and you have to sail them differently.

The C-250 owners on this forum have frequently attested to the ability of the boat to stand up to rough conditions. But, like any sailboat, you have to carry the correct sail configuration that will keep her on her feet. You can't sail a C-250 the same way you would sail a C-25, because of the design differences. You have to learn the unique sailing characteristics of a C-250, and, as the wind rises, make sail trim adjustments that work best for the C-250. The C-250 sailors on this forum are, collectively, a good source of information on that subject. Jamie hit the books to learn about sail trim and boat balance. He said that he had to break old habits. You can tell from his post that he is now thrilled with the way his boat performs.

Whoever actually designed the C-250 was undoubtedly a proven boat designer. The prototype of the boat was undoubtedly tested by expert sailors who probably recommended modifications, and when they were all done, they undoubtedly believed that the boat performed well in a wide range of conditions, when reasonably well rigged, sailed and trimmed. With the C-22, C-25, C-27 and C-30, Catalina has designed some of the most successful racer/cruiser sailboats in history. If you alter a significant design element of the boat, you are, in effect, overruling the designers and sailors who tested the boat, and trusting your own judgment over theirs. If you add a significant amount of weight to the wing keel, how do you know that the hull-keel attachment is strong enough to support the added weight over the long term? After the wing keel was first introduced with such success in the America's Cup, boat designers tried sticking wings onto shortened fin keels, but they found that the correct shape of the wing was crucial to its performance. Designers experimented with all different shapes of wing keels, to learn which worked and which didn't. Somewhere along the line, the shape of the C-250's wing keel was probably tank-tested, and shown to be reasonably efficient. If you bolt added weight to your keel and bevel the plates, you are discarding all that body of knowledge and substituting your own ideas. You might be right, and they might be wrong, but it is not likely.

Excessive weather helm is caused (1) by having the center of effort of the sail plan too far aft, and (2) by excessive heeling (which, among other things, makes the wetted surface of the hull unequal). If you are experiencing excessive weather helm, you can change the center of effort of the sail plan by (1) adjusting the stays to tilt the mast and rig forward, and by (2) reducing the size of the mainsail, and flattening its shape. You reduce the mainsail's size by reefing it, and you flatten its shape by using your downhaul or cunningham, your boom vang, your outhaul and your backstay adjuster. You can also reduce heeling by easing your traveller or your mainsheet, which reduces the lateral pressure on the mainsail. If the jib is slightly too big for the amount of wind, you can tame it a little by moving the jib cars aft a couple of spaces.

As Mark suggests, by raking your centerboard, you can move the center of lateral resistance aft, and reduce weather helm, but, my personal opinion is that you should reduce the size of your jib or reef your mainsail before you even consider raking your centerboard. If you use all those measures, it should not be necessary to rake the centerboard.

Before I would make a change in the fundamental design of my boat, I would exhaust all possibilities of improving her performance by studying boat balance and sail trim, and by changing my sailing habits. If you do, I'm betting you will be as pleased with her as Jamie.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

ssteakley
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
467 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2002 : 23:49:49

Ron,
I have a 99' 250WK #385. I am the second owner and when I took the boat out in 15mph+ winds I experienced extreme weather helm. I noticed that the Mast was raked to far back and moved the top of the mast 4" forward by attaching the forstay to the deck level tang and lengthing the aftstay with a 3" tang insert. I also upgraded to the new rudder upgrade from catalina and that completely solved the weather helm problem. I can now sail in 20mph+ winds with a refed main and never have any rounding up problems. I have participated in fun runs type races and out run much larger cruisers up to 32'. the mainsail is the primary engine and if you have a roller furling genoa then you can find the right balence. I would buy another boat before I modified the Keel. I can not even imagine needing sand bags in the bilge.
Check out the mast tuning and consider the rudder upgrade first.,
hope this points the right direction,
Steve Steakley
"Moon Chaser"

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2002 : 00:07:37

My boat is a 2000 C250wk,I am one of the C250wk owners that added ballast to the v-berth locker and moved the batteries to the same locker this ballanced the boat very well.I also have tighted the forestay as far as it will go to get the mast as far forward as possible.I sail the gusty Colorado winds and with the wheel I did not have a lot of noticable weather helm after the above mentioned adjustments. The biggest problem I had was steering in reverse out of the dock slip. In early 2001 I found out Catalina redesigned the rudder for the C250. Through the local Catalina dealer I was able to get a new one at a reasonable cost. This made the biggest difference the boat responded well in reverse and at a 25 degree heal. The new rudder is wider and about 10% of the rudder is under the stern giving it better balance. I have talked to people that just pulled their rig forward as far as possible and added the new rudder and their responce was the weather helm was greatly reduced. I do agree with Steve's comments sail trim and rig adjustment is the key to reducing weather helm. But having a wider rudder is a great help as well.

Bryan Beamer
Daylight Again C250wk

Edited by - on

acierno
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2002 : 07:58:54

thanks again for the info. ok, at this point i will tighten the forestay, and consistent with my habit of overdoing things, i have just put 300lb of sandbags in the v-berth...the reason i kept on adding was because she continued (continues) to sit accross her water line with the stern dipping in all the way above the pin-striping (two or three inches past the bottom paint). amazingly, the three hundred pounds has not countered this. i have not taken her out yet, but i already think i may have overdone it. we'll see. also, being a research scientist type, i am only going to change one variable at a time. forward berth ballast is first. then i will tighten forestay, then i will replace rudder. sails aready flat, traveller already running free, reef already actively used. will report effects of each of the remaining variables as they are assessed.
ron

ron

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2002 : 08:46:57

While Catalina's primary suggestion on handling the c250 is to keep it flat which is good for speed and crew comfort, that doesn't solve a need for forgivness. Puffs and wind changes will push this lightly ballasted boat over at times and in my opinion, a skipper should have his/her boat capable of sustaining heeling up to 40 deg without rounding up out of control.

To accomplish this on the c250, requires of course a rudder capable of holding it. The 1st generation wouldn't, the 2nd would but experienced great torque in the effort and the third is reported to be very capable (at least at lower heel angles).

The primary effort however is to focus on boat balance as has been suggested above. Raking the center is a good and viable method to accomplish this for those who have the water ballast boat. In fact, at some point, Catalina started putting a stopper on the center board holding it in a raked back position. Wished I could tell you what hull number this started with...if any one wants the drawings....let me know. Catalina offers this modification.

There is a trade off however to having this mod...without, the center board can be removed from the trunk on the trailer by jacking the bow slightly. With the mod, I doubt the board would come out.

Remember, the new rudder doesn't solve the weather helm, it just copes with it better. Only proper balance will cure the helm issue.

One item that hasn't been mentioned is boat speed. Its important to keep boat speed up for at least two reasons, 1st of course to keep the rudder lifting and effective, but primarily I think the CLR moves forward with decreasing speed. Most of us have intuitively learned to bring her up to dump power, but to do this at the cost of much boat speed on the c250 doesn't work well.

In a 90 mile crossing of Lake Huron a few years ago, on a reach I obtained balance well enough to sail for a two hour stretch between 7-8.5 mph with the helm locked and no sail adjustments. I have a video segment of that. It is about 8 min long and a large file, but anyone wishing, I will send a disc.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2002 : 11:29:37

Ron

If you have added 300lbs to the v-berth and the boat is still not sitting level you might want to redistribute your storage load more towards the center of the boat. Other item that could be the cause, the weight of the outboard motor, if you have a marine head is the holding tank in the aft storage compartment, how many batteries do you have and where are they, is your fresh water tank in the v-berth full or empty. I would try to ballance the boat with the fresh water tank 1/2 full and the marine holding tank 1/2 empty. Use the port & starboard storage benches as much as possible. Leave the lighter items i.e. (life jackets throw cushions) in the aft sleeping quarters storage area.

Keep trying you are headed in the right direction.

Bryan Beamer
Daylight Again C250wk #495

Edited by - on

acierno
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2002 : 16:04:31

the motor and battery are definately contributing to problem. the battery is way aft, behind the rear berth. i do not have a marine head, just the portapottie. the water tank is 3/4 full and the side berths have light stuff in them, nothing aft other than cushions. still, with water tank and 300lbs, it should sit straighter

ron

Edited by - on

mmodine
1st Mate

Members Avatar

26 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2002 : 10:13:55

We also sail on a gusty Colorado lake, in 250 WK #587. Our boat came with the larger rudder, adjustable backstay and a wheel. We keep the water tank full and I am planning on moving the battery forward to compensate for the 15 hp Honda and guests who like the stern seats.

We move people to the front of the cockpit in higher winds and usually have no problem with weather helm until it is too windy to be having fun anyway.

Edited by - on

acierno
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2002 : 08:31:46

thanks for your input--does anyone know if anything has to be done to compensate for the electrical resistance arising from very long battery cables--what have others done? do we need to use extra long cables? also, i have a roller furling which is shackled to the bow chain plate and i dont see any way to tighten it as previously suggested. any ideas?

ron

Edited by - on

mmodine
1st Mate

Members Avatar

26 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2002 : 10:43:45

Our roller furler has a turnbuckle located inside the drum. Figure out how to slide the drum up and there it is. Just make sure the locking cotter pins are reinstalled in the turnbuckle.

Edited by - on

acierno
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2002 : 13:21:46

thanks, will do.

ron

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2002 : 10:48:31

Ron

A good way to get to the turn buckle inside the drum. Loosen the furling line running to the cockpit.Lift the drum out of the stainless housing take a line about 2' long with a bowline tied at each end rap the line around the drum though one of the loops so the line will tighen on it self as pressure is applied hook the other bowline loop to the unused jib halyard pull up on the jib halyard and cleat it off. This will raise it about an 1" above the turn buckle giving you plenty of room to work and 2 hands free.

Bryan Beamer
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.