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Helm Balance

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/03/2004 : 21:39:51

It seems a little odd... With full main and 130, I generally have a very, very light weather helm all of the conditions I've been in this year. (The rig is newly tuned because the standing rigging is all new).) Saturday, the wind was piping on Long Island Sound--by late afternoon, it was above 20 and gusting well above that. I was out with a friend who wasn't ready for heavy-duty sailing--the waves were enough as it was. I pulled out the whole roller 130 and left the main on the boom. The helm was still very slightly to weather! As wind and seas built, I decided to throttle back a little more and rolled up about 1/4 of the genny--presumably moving the CE forward. The helm was still virtually neutral to very slightly weather. I thought that was pretty neat, but I'd have a hard time explaining it. I guess I'm easily amused...

Association Port Captain, Mystic, CT
Past member and DPO of C-25 #5032
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing) and posting as "Stinkpotter".

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - on

cvwall
1st Mate

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USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2004 : 08:09:08

Dave, it probably means that the Center of Effort of your sail is far enough aft of the Center of Lateral Resistance that furling it slightly doesn't make much of a difference. If the helm was neutral at that point, the two points were probably close to being aligned. It was gorgeous Saturday. Down our end the wind was dead out of the South at 10-15, building to 15-20. Once we beat out of West Cove it was a reach either way up and down the Sound with a run back home to the mooring; couldn't be better.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2004 : 09:30:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 ...Saturday, the wind was piping on Long Island Sound--by late afternoon, it was above 20 and gusting well above that. I was out with a friend who wasn't ready for heavy-duty sailing--the waves were enough as it was. I pulled out the whole roller 130 and left the main on the boom. The helm was still very slightly to weather!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Just last night, I was out in 20+ winds with just the 135 up and the helm was balanced. When the winds are up, I sail quite a bit this way (genny only) and I find the boat handles spectacularly with, in certain conditions, the boat hitting hull speed, and at times, exceeding it.

Edited by - on

SJ
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2004 : 14:03:42

Dave,

I was out Saturday also. Cominfg from Centerport over to watch my son race in the OPTI Team Racing Nationals. I was thinking the breeze was up a bit higher than that at times. I had a reffed main and about 50% of the 150 out. Steady breeze the helm was fairly neutral, but in the puffs.....OUCH! A flogging main makes a lot of noise!

Edited by - on

SJ
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2004 : 14:10:02

btw, over to American YC.....

Edited by - on

JoergK
Navigator

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USA
140 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2004 : 15:33:16

Out here on Barnegat Bay the wind, too, came straight from South. Whitecaps everywhere, very few sails and fortunately very few power boats out. We were flying. It was great, except that blue-black cloud thunderstorm which we tried to outrun. Almost made it.

Edited by - on

Randolph G. Wilson
1st Mate

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USA
64 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2004 : 09:50:54

I envy you guys with those breezes. Down here in Atlanta this time of year we are getting "5 to 10" forecasts but seeing mostly 5.

Edited by - on

sailgal
Captain

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USA
400 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2004 : 13:08:07

Rain rain rain! Wondering about that "Sunshine State" slogan!
Miss a good sail, been more than two weeks. Enjoy the winds guys!

Going through sailing withdrawals on gulf coast

Edited by - sailgal on 08/07/2004 13:08:45

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2004 : 02:20:51

The wind last Th was blowing about 15 for our weekly beer can race, with higher gusts. terrrific sailing. The 150 was a bit much since I had only two crew that were beginners. I pulled them out of a sailing class. They did a great job. I have been upset about the PHRF for our boat. Being a lake sailor the winds are not usually that high. The ratings for every race I have been in are set in San Francisco Bay, known for high winds. I find that during our light wind races some of the boats just walk away from me, old mac 26's. It has been very discouraging. The other night though we were right up there with the lead pack till the down wind leg and the spinnakers had these boats take off in a plane. I did have one of our club's fastest sailors behind me till the very end. Slight mishap with a whisker pole in the way. All in all a great sail though. The only thing that could have made it better were if the admrial had been along. She was at a soccer meeting that was postponed and missed the start.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2004 : 21:41:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MattL
 I find that during our light wind races some of the boats just walk away from me, old mac 26's.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Light air is where the Catalina 25 really suffers from it's weight. The MacGregor 25's and 26's, and the Catalina 250, can really walk away from us because they have much less drag from wetted surface area. It takes 10 kts of breeze to make my boat move downwind, or 5 kts upwind. The boat that really azazes me for light air performance is the Santana 20. There are several of these at Folsom Lake that race, and even in conditions that you can barely even feel a breeze on your face, the Santana 20's will be moving right along at a couple of knots - not blazing speed, but moving in a breeze so light I wouldn't even attemp to keep up.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2004 : 22:20:08

When you're beating to windward in light air, heel the boat to leeward by putting about 4 people on the lee rail and slightly forward. When running, heel the boat forward and to leeward by putting 3-4 people forward of the leeward shrouds. It reduces the wetted surface, helps keep the sail shape full and driving, and prevents the boom from swinging to windward in light air. The boat will go considerably faster.

Edited by - on

JoergK
Navigator

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USA
140 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2004 : 12:39:17

Yes our C25's need wind, but when they get it the swinger performs! We kept pace for a while with a First 28.5 !
Here we're trying to get away from a swift Barnegat Bay storm.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2004 : 20:44:17

Beauty Joerg!

Edited by - on

GregOnC25
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2004 : 23:01:21

Joerg,
I danced around that black cloud on Barnegat and somehow dodged the rain. What a day Saturday was!

Dave, and others,
Will try your advice on Genny alone. Sunday was pushing 20 knots and beyond on Barnegat, and even with a reefed main and scrap of jib the boat was overpowered, especially for family out for a leisurely sail. Leaving them behind on Sunday was not an option! Needless to say it was a brief outing.
Greg

Edited by - on

JoergK
Navigator

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USA
140 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2004 : 10:06:37

Greg, is this the cloud you mentioned?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2004 : 21:44:14

Cool pics! I think my sails would be down and the Honda cranking!

A observation about the genny alone: It's a bigger sail than the main, but has a larger proportion of its area lower (a lower CE), giving it less heeling leverage. In my experience, it drives the boat considerably faster with less heel and leeway than the main alone (which is pretty useless on the C-25). And on a roller, the genny's power is continuously variable, even partially powered up. The only disadvantage is it isn't self-tacking.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/10/2004 21:45:53

GregOnC25
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2004 : 00:03:40

Joerg....that's the one!

Dave...I was discussing this with a friend of mine (Catalina 28 owner) and he said genny alone can be hard on the rig and has been known to result in dismasting. I guess there is enough experience with C25s on this forum to offset this warning? Your thoughts?
Greg

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2004 : 08:52:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GregOnC25
 ...I was discussing this with a friend of mine (Catalina 28 owner) and he said genny alone can be hard on the rig and has been known to result in dismasting. I guess there is enough experience with C25s on this forum to offset this warning? Your thoughts?
Greg
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I can't see how sailing with a genny alone would be detrimental to the rig.

Let's say I'm sailing along with my 135 and full main, when I decide to lose the main because of conditions. With the main dropped and the genoa full, I have less heel which means less forces are exerted on the rig.

Additionally, if sailing with genny alone "has been known to result in dismasting", how come I've never heard or read about it?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2004 : 21:05:22

I have to agree with Don... I've never read or heard such a thing, and I know some serious cruisers who do it a fair amount. Now, if we're talking about 50+ knots, a storm trisail is probably better than a small jib alone--for balanced drive and for balanced forces on the rig. But I don't have one and don't plan on needing one. When it started piping (black water with whitecaps) two weeks ago, I shortened the genny by about a third, reducing the force some more.

Now, having said all of that, if I'm dismasted while on genny alone, I'll let you know!

One more thing--on a Hunter B&R rig, you might be right!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/12/2004 21:06:38

GregOnC25
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2004 : 20:12:55

Don, Dave,
I'm sure you guys are right. I should have done some "fact checking" on that one. Thanks for the advice.
Greg

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2004 : 16:42:21

Getting back to the original observation regarding weather helm, it is my understanding that tuning the mast with a "rake" will increase weather helm. The greater the rake the more the weather helm.
When you tuned your new standing rigging, was the mast near verticle?

I personally rake my mast a few inches to build a little weather helm into the boat because,with the new "improved" rudder, you can hardly feel the boat heading up. Sail trim keeps things under control. It works for me.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2004 : 18:14:18

I got new standing rigging this year and did not use the turnbuckles that it was cut for. As a result my forestay was too short, resulting in a forward raked mast. I had lee helm. Raking the mast will definitely gross trim your helm.

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 10:36:01

Yesterday we were out with 4+baby in Pamlico in almost too much wind (for our second sail ever in the C25 anyway). With half of the 135 and no main sail, it was lee helm as expected. When we sheeted in to go to weather, it pretty much stalled out so we motored out of the shore and went back to beam reaches. Only if I had remembered this thread and used the backstay adjuster (which was completely loose)...
Anyway, coming in we unfurled the 135 for a broad reach (which hit 5.6 knots according to the GPS, only if we had been brave enough to put up the main!! Then again I saw two bigger boat go by with full sail complements with rails in the water, so I am happy) and with full genow we did have slight weather helm. So I guess the C25 (WK in this case) is pretty well balanced.

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Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 21:18:39

Dave, We have a main that is about 1 1/2 times normal area, full batten with large roach, and if the boat is not heeled, I actually have a slight lee helm. Weather helm is mostly a function of heeling not rig balance. As the boat leans the CE moves toward the lee rail or even outboard of it and the boat tends to round up just as it would if you tried to tow it from the end of a wisker pole in normal operating position. Dave

Edited by - Dave Laux on 08/31/2004 17:44:51

Uncas
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 17:05:37

I just registered after reading the posts here concerning the sailing conditions on Saturday. I have to chime in!
I was sailing on the northern end of the Chesapeake and it was a day (as you have described it)made for a Cat 25. It was the first opportunity I have had to work with my new North Sails main. I had ticks sewn into the leech of the sail. I have found them to be more of a pain than anything(and started to ignore them) in light air. Saturday was a different story. I was single handed and left the mouth of the Middle River on full main and 150. ( Yahoo!) I sailed close hauled ENE to clear the southern tip of Pooles Island headed up the bay. My boat was dancing. Everything was trimmed and those Da... red ticks where all streaming aft in unison. It got a bit puffy and I was getting over powered but because I was by myself I didn't want to do a sail change until I fell off the wind past Pooles Island. Out in the open bay it was rolling 3 feet and my new point of sail was down wind. I decided to keep my 150 up and jibe up the bay. I reached the mouth of the Sasafrass River in about 3 hours, pulled off the 150 and put up my 110. I was close hauled headed back and I must admit that the 110 was all the head sail the boat needed in those conditions. There where no thunderstorms. Just lucky I guess! When I got back to my slip a lady powerboater approached me and asked how it was "out on the bay" She told me it was just to choppy out there for her and her family to go out. I told her my boat was up on it's toe's and dancing today, and it was!

All the Best,
Uncas

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 17:15:27

Welcome, Uncas (Dave)! Sounds like you know how to handle that boat. Tell us about what you've got (besides some nice sails), and jump in any time--the water's fine!

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