Association Forum - Rounding the marks

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Rounding the marks

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Member Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/08/2003 : 11:09:34

Last night I was out practicing mark rounding. I am going to try to race for the first time on Saturday (the last three weeks they have been cancelled by too much wind twice and too little wind once) and am trying to remember things. Last night I was trying to remember the "mast a beam" scenario. As I recall, in the ideal situation you are closing on a mark, duck under the boat ahead and gain right of way at the "mast a beam" moment. At that point you cease being an over taking boat and become a leeward and ahead boat with right of way at the mark. Is that right? And remind me of the conditions when the mast a beam call can be made.

I hope this posting will generate a lot of racing questions from different people because I desperately need the input.

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - on

Bruce Baker
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2003 : 11:57:04

Frank,

The rule that's important with regard to mark rounding is this: in order to have "rights" to round the mark on the inside, you need to establish and maintain an overlap before you get within two boatlengths of the mark. You don't need to be mast abeam. A simple overlap will do.

Not related to the above discussion, the old mast abeam rule has been relegated to the scrap heap of history:

http://www.sanjuan21.net/rules.html

Bruce Baker
Falls Church, VA
"Yee Ha" 3573
'83SR/SK

Edited by - on

mtiffee
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
57 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2003 : 13:25:56

http://www.isafrules.com/aaa.swf

This is a good web site that has animations. Rule 18 covers mark rounding.

Mike
'89 TR/WK "Freelancer"
#5927

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2003 : 16:07:06

Mike,

Good site, but the four cases for rule 18 have been deleted. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

mtiffee
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
57 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2003 : 16:27:18

The ISAF case #'s (interpretations) don't correspond to the rule #

here is a direct link to the case book..

http://www.isafrules.com/casebookstartpage.swf

The cases that deal with rule 18 are as follows:

Case 21,70 (rule 18)
Case 84,94 (rule 18.1)
Case 9 (rule 18.1b)
Case 11,12,30,59,86 (rule 18.2a)
Case 2,15,29,62,63,81 (rule 18.2c)
Case 95 (rule 18.3)
Case 93 (rule 18.3b)
Case 75 (rule 18.4)
Case 16,33 (rule 18.5)

Mike
'89 TR/WK "Freelancer"
#5927

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2003 : 16:34:12

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Good site, but the four cases for rule 18 have been deleted. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

They can probably be found [url="http://www.sailing.org/menu.asp?MenuID=t0lrGXkszMRst0z/uCxVx5R7a3?SMekLESPF?LTVgFsFMolxKWru2zRTg9Tpqv~ZgmyC/"]here[/url].

J.B. Manley
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' the Cherokees
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2003 : 16:45:04

Frank - remember that an overlap is established when the most forward part of the trailing boat overlaps the most aft part of the leading boat. If you are running a spinnaker it's the furthermost forward part of the sail. If you have an O/B tilted up then your prop is the aftermost point of your boat.
Thus, if you have a chute flying about 3' ahead of the boat, and yr O/B sticks out 2', you are in a 30' "boat", and 2 boat lengths from the leeward mark becomes 60' - not 50'!! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2003 : 20:36:35

...and remember that if you start playing those games in your first race, before you find out how your local racers tend to interpret those rules, you might end up with a bent pulpit and some very hard feelings--or worse. Be aware of the rules, and use them conservatively until you've been in the game for a while.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/08/2003 20:37:04

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/08/2003 : 22:05:29

I seem to remember that you can sail across the line during the first ten minutes of the "count down" and you do not need to recross the line between the mark and the comittee boat, but during the last five minutes if you cross the line you must come back down through the line before the gun. Is that true?

Edited by - on

mtiffee
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
57 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2003 : 09:03:25

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2003 : 10:14:06

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I seem to remember that you can sail across the line during the first ten minutes of the "count down" and you do not need to recross the line between the mark and the comittee boat, but during the last five minutes if you cross the line you must come back down through the line before the gun. Is that true?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Maybe it is, and maybe it isn’t.

The Race Committee can prescribe a penalty for being on the course side of the starting line prior to the start, or they can prescribe no penalty.

No Penalty: By far, most races are started with no penalty system in effect. In that case, you are allowed to be on the course side of the starting line right up to the starting signal. If any part of your boat, crew or equipment is on the wrong side of the line at the start, you simply have to get back completely behind the line to start legally. This is commonly known as the dip start.

“Around the Ends” Penalty System, also known as the “I Flag System”: When an “I” flag is displayed as the preparatory signal, the “around the ends rule” comes into effect. This means that, in the final minute before the start, if any part of your boat is on the course side of the line, you must return to the pre-start side around one of the ends of the line.

The Z Flag (20%) Penalty System: When a Z flag is displayed as the preparatory signal, if any part of your boat is on the wrong side of the line in the final minute before the start, you must return to the pre-start side of the line to start legally. Nevertheless, after the race, your finishing position will be penalized by 20% of the number of boats entered in the race. For example, if there are 20 boats in the race, and you finish first, you will be penalized four places. Thus, your penalty will put you in fifth place.

The Black Flag (disqualification): When a black flag is displayed as the preparatory signal, if any part of your boat is on the wrong side of the line in the final minute before the start, you will be disqualified, unless the race is postponed or abandoned before the starting signal. If there is a general recall, you will not be permitted to start.

These starting penalty systems can be brought into effect for any start by simply raising the appropriate flag as the preparatory signal.

You should also check the sailing instructions, provided by the race committee, to be sure that one of the starting penalty systems is not specified.

Don’t be overly aggressive at the start. Obviously, you don’t want to be buried to leeward of the whole fleet, but you don't have to have the “best start” to win a race. Try to get the second or third best start, with clear air. If you learn how to “put on the brakes,” you can vastly improve your ability to hit the line dead-bang-on. You put on the brakes by doing all the opposite things that you do to make your boat go fast. You luff either or both of your sails, pinch to windward, steer the boat on a slalom-type course, rather than a straight line course, make large, sudden movements of the rudder, etc. When you are close to the starting line, and a few seconds from the starting signal, bear off and accelerate to gain speed, and then harden your sails to gain pointing ability. If you see that another boat is going to squeeze you out at the starting mark, bear off across his stern and hit the line to leeward of him. You’ll still have a good start.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2003 : 13:15:34

Thanks for all of the input, I went to the ISAF site (sailing.org) and downloaded the entire 01-04 rules in PDF plus the case book. It has been good reading. Does anyone have any racing war stories to illustrate specific issues? What preparatory flags do we normally use at our nationals?

I am curious as to why our class forbids raising the keel on a downwind leg. It seems only good seamanship to optimize your wetted surface and trailing edges. Is a Catalina really dangerous with the keel up? I used to have a Spirit 23 with a shoal keel and it sailed fine with the center board up.

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2003 : 14:03:29

Which penelty?

In reading Steve's and Mike's posts pertaining to starting rules, I noticed a difference in the 20% penelty. Mike stated that the penelty effected the total time, and Steve said it effected the placement, based on the number of entries. Are both Mike and Steve correct? Is this a determination made by the Race committee? Of course this determination would have be known before the start of the race. I think I've seen this penelty applied to time, thus a boat that took 100 minutes to finish the race would be scored with a 20 minute penelty.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2003 : 14:07:51

I have seen the racing penelties applied in large fleets, generally after a General Recall. With the penelty becoming greater as the number of recalls increased. In other words, the first start had no penelty. The second start required a boat on the windward side of the line to go around one of the ends in order to start, and the third start would require a boat to go around one of the ends, and would receive a 20% penelty (based on time) and the forth start would DSQ aany boats on the windward side of the mark before the start of the race.

The objective of the penelties is to drive the boasts from aggressive starts, where the whole, or substantial part of the fleet is over early!

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

mtiffee
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
57 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2003 : 15:16:15

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
In reading Steve's and Mike's posts pertaining to starting rules, I noticed a difference in the 20% penelty. Mike stated that the penelty effected the total time, and Steve said it effected the placement, based on the number of entries. Are both Mike and Steve correct?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I was incorrect. I've never actually seen the penalty in use, so I assumed time. The rule says:

30.2 20% Penalty Rule
If flag Z has been displayed before, with, or as a boat's preparatory signal, no part of her hull, crew or equipment shall be in the triangle formed by the ends of the starting line and the first mark during the minute before her starting signal. If a boat breaks this rule and is identified, she shall receive, without a hearing, a 20% scoring penalty calculated as stated in rule 44.3(c). She shall be penalized even if the race is restarted, resailed or rescheduled, but not if it is postponed or abandoned before the starting signal.

Rule 44.3(c) states:
The boat's penalty score shall be the score for the place worse than her actual finishing place by the number of places stated in the sailing instructions, except that she shall not be scored worse than Did Not Finish. When the sailing instructions do not state the number of places, the number shall be the whole number (rounding 0.5 upward) nearest to 20% of the number of boats entered. The scores of other boats shall not be changed; therefore, two boats may receive the same score.

Mike
'89 TR/WK "Freelancer"
#5927

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2003 : 17:48:27

Thanks Mike for clarifying the 20% penaltyrule. I'm not sure I've seen this but it is good know.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2003 : 18:24:37

Our PHRF Committee ( 6 guys with more than a 100 years racing experience between us) considered the "raising keel" question. After a long discussion and many theories, we decided NOT to allow it in our events (it's now part of our PHRF protocol).
There is a racing rule that states (roughly - I don't have the rule book handy) "you shall not shift ballast to affect performance or STABILITY (my caps). Our final consensus was that raising the keel might not be called "shifting ballast" but it sure affected stability. If you don't believe this, just leave the keel up after rounding the leeward mark!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Another consensus was that raising the keel does not affect stability (on a downwind run) but lowering it sure does!
The other reason for banning keel raising is the PHRF factor. A swing keel is faster to weather than a fixed (it tacks faster, has less leeway) but is slower downwind (more wetted surface). These two factors cancel each other so the PHRF numbers are the same for both keels.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.