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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Holes in the roof...

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/30/2003 : 11:18:38

I'm getting closer to completing my collection of hardware for the "Lines led aft" project.

One question:
There is an airspace between the headliner and the deck of the 250WB. In order to secure line organizers/stoppers, or anything else for that matter do I just drill through both and then put a (fender) washer and nut on the liner? This is how the jib sheet tracks, the mast foot and the mid-ship stanchions appear to be installed. Is there going to be flexing, ie variation in the distance between the liner and the deck? If I torque it all down too much will I distort (crack) the liner? Or, do I need to drill an oversize hole for every bolt (18 at last count) secure the washer/nut on the backside of the deck itself, torque it down properly, and then somehow "plug" or put plates over the liner? This is how the cabin top winches and aft stanchions are installed.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - Oscar on 08/30/2003 11:35:18

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2003 : 11:59:04

Oscar...

I think there are two methods... as usual, the easy and not so easy. And, as usual, the easy one has shortcomings and the not so easy offers more.

The easy is to make bushings to match the thickness. This will solve the comression problems but depends completely on the bedding compound to keep water from infiltrating.

Harder is to oversize the holes and pour epoxy bushings, redrilling the holes.

Probably not that hard considering the protection.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2003 : 12:04:10

Thank you Arlyn,

There did not seem to be any bushings involved in the genoa track installation. I took one out on the inside, it was a hollow nut about 1/2 long...(don't know the proper term for the piece).....did that solve the problem? Or do you think the engineers felt they could get away with putting the load on the liner because of the large number and close spacing of the bolts/nuts? Hang on, I'm making a diagram but applied to a line stopper (same difference)......

Here we go.....

<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/deckbolt.jpg" border=0>

A few observations:

First: I could not see if the washer backing the deck was actually there (lots of goop) and if the end of the Whatchamacallitnut (WCN) was reaching that far......if its not there the load is still on the liner.

Second, putting the aforementioned washer there and tightening the WCN on the washer would in fact bring the load to the deck, and the liner would just float. The big washer would be cosmetic. The only problem is that you cant get a very big washer through the hole in the liner, so the load distribution on the deck would be limited. Also, the deck and the liner could share the load, provided of course that the shaft of the WCN (somebody help me please) is just the right lenght....

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - Oscar on 08/30/2003 12:42:51

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2003 : 12:40:39

Oscar, I believe the correct terminology is an acorn nut.
"Bear" on Brandy

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2003 : 12:47:40

Isn't that a nut with a rounded top? The kind you see on the end of the mast foot and stanchion bolts?
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/acornnut.jpg" border=0>

Piece I'm talking about looks like a bolt, with a head larger than the shaft, except the shaft is drilled out and threaded on the inside......I'll have to go and get it out and take a picture i guess...

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - Oscar on 08/30/2003 12:59:55

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2003 : 14:25:22

The way I've seen this handled (on a Mac 26)... they had cut an appropriate sized access hole in the liner using a hole saw (about 1", maybe 1-1/2" AFAICR).

With the opening, it's easy to put decent backing washers, bedding compound (& etc.) in against the underside of the deck.

There are little 'pop-in' covers available that 'plug' the hole saw openings and make it look nice. They easily pry out with a screwdriver to give you access to the fasteners for maintenance.

Haven't looked for a source out there for the 'cosmetic' plugs, but I imagine google will yield one.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2003 : 23:58:41

That would indeed work.....the stoppers have six bolts each, so a 1-1/2 inch or so hole and some creative tooling to work between the liner and the deck could work. I'll have to create some sort of caliper measuring device to measure around the edge of the hatch the distance between the top of the deck and the bottom of the liner just forward of the cabin top winches. Assuming 1/8 inch of fiberglass (times 2) I could guesstimate the distance between the two and decide wether I could work in there.....

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2003 : 09:08:40

Doesn't the 250 have a plywood core in there? The C-25 does--I mounted my deck organizers and clutches through it and had no evidence of voids. I used fender washers and acorn nuts--not quite as cosmetic, but solid.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2003 : 09:34:35

Dave, their indeed is an air space.

Oscar, I think the blind nuts are too problematic in getting the depth right. However, it would be very easy to use a takeoff from the drawing you provided.

After drilling the hole thru both the deck and liner...lets say it was for 1/4 inch bolts. then from beneath... drill the liner for 3/8. Using 3/8 nylon bushing stock with a 1/4 inch hole, insert into the liner hole until it bottoms to the deck... mark and cut at this length and label it for that particular hole...

This process however, would approach the effort of using resin.

The resin method might be easier now with non expanding foams available. Squirt some foam in the hole...let it dry... use a drill with a 1/4 inch 90 deg bent wire and clean out the hole and with tape on the bottom, fill the holes. The additional benefit of water infiltration protection offered by this method in my opinion... is worth the slight additional effort.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2003 : 11:35:49

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> After drilling the hole thru both the deck and liner...lets say it was for 1/4 inch bolts. then from beneath... drill the liner for 3/8. Using 3/8 nylon bushing stock with a 1/4 inch hole, insert into the liner hole until it bottoms to the deck... mark and cut at this length and label it for that particular hole...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I like that better than blobbing goop all over the deck......<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - Oscar on 09/04/2003 21:34:35

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2003 : 21:36:03

They're called:

BARREL NUTS
<img src="http://images.shipstore.com/ss/images/BEC/BECstandBNut.JPG" border=0>

Git yer barrelnuts...git yer barrelnuts...

http://www.shipstore.com/ss/html/BEC/BECBB2500125.html

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/store/entries/index_fasteners.html?L+scstore+ltvx9424ff25e925+1089780775

<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Oscar
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/LKforumshot.jpg" border=0>
Lady Kay 250 WB #618
In the driveway in Behtlehem, PA ready to go anytime.

Edited by - Oscar on 09/04/2003 21:48:23

Edited by - on

Bubba
Admiral

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USA
542 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2003 : 20:27:10

Oscar, my '97 C-250wk has a plywood core in the cabin top around the rope clutches and the tracks for the jib leads. I can tell where it ends by knocking on the cabin top from inside. I replaced my port-side single rope clutch with a triple. Each hole I drilled went through a bunch of plywood. It took 2-1/2 inch flat-head machine screws to reach just short of the interior liner. A barrel nut on the inside covers the remaining distance.

Seems like the best bet would be to pull one of the existing screws and poke around from below with an awl to see if you hit anything first... Here's hoping it goes easy.

By the way, I followed your lead from another post and installed a Forespar tiller extension and lockbox. I get nervous drilling/cutting holes in the boat, but the project went well. I'll have to wait 'till next weekend to try it out.
Best of luck with your "lines led aft" project! Show us pictures when you're done.

Dave & Deb
<img src="http://mywebpages.comcast.net/davendeb/boat/images/thumbnails/boat.jpg" border=0>
"Frayed Knot"
C-250wk #270

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2003 : 22:40:22

If you use the resin method of sealing the core when you mount hardware, I've found that rope caulk makes a great seal to fill the bottom of the hole while the epoxy cures. I've never had a leak while waiting for the cure. I usually put a piece of tape over the caulk as double insurance against finding a hardened blob of epoxy on the settee cushion, but I don't think it's ever been needed.

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2003 : 12:59:48

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I can tell where it ends by knocking on the cabin top from inside. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Hah! A good idea....let's take a nice rounded nylon handle of a fat screwdriver and we'll go do some rappin' ......will report back.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

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ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2003 : 14:02:59

Its also possible (and challenging) to cut the liner with a holesaw,glop it neatly with marinetex or epoxy slurry, stick it back in the hole up against the inner side of the hull or deck, and hold it (prop it ) in place till it cures. Makes a nice, tasty backing plate for a fastener. Then you can cover the hole with the pop-in insert which can often be found at home depot or hardware store, good luck ron srsk Orion SW FL

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