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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/13/2003 : 23:22:58

Greetings,

As some of you might recall, other than taking on water, my major gripe after taking delivery of Lady Kay in February was that she listed to starboard. I sent pictures to Catalina. As evidenced by another thread on this forum, Frank Butler was made aware.
Finally, after a month, I got an e-mail from the dealer, who is a thousand miles away, asking for more pictures of the boat, with engine, fuel tank and any "equipment new to the boat" removed. He is then to pass those on to Catalina. No offer to bring it in to a local dealer to look at it, maybe point out something I might have done to cause this, possibly do this work, or at least provide assistance with removal of the Honda 9.9.
I guess the strategy is to create the appearance of being willing to fix the problem, keep the (conveniently remotely located) dealer between me and the manufacurer, stretch, make it difficult and lots of work for me and thus wear me out. After fighting with a car manufacturer for two and a half years I don't know If I have the energy for this bull*$%$&*. The burden of proof is once again on the consumer, and thus once again the consumer bites the big one. So much for warrantees. Brand loyalty? Hah!

cc David Grass/Frank Butler.

Oscar
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/list.JPG" border=0>
Lady Kay 250 WB #618
In the driveway in Behtlehem, PA ready to go anytime.

Edited by - Oscar on 05/13/2003 23:33:31

Edited by - on

Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2003 : 11:28:45

I've been so busy trying to get other projects done by summer, but, now that you mention it, my new wing keel #698 lists to starboard. I'll be following this thread with interest....

Al Maniccia
SeaWolf C250WK #698
Marina Del Rey, CA

Edited by - on

jkey6
1st Mate

Members Avatar

71 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2003 : 13:22:15

Sorry to read about your problem and the poor service. Got to get to the bottom of this one.

Couple of points I'll pass along FYI,

I had a couple of warranty issues on my C250WK (yr. 2000, #486) and I was very impressed with Catalina's support. They took a little time (maybe 2 months) getting there but but actually sent a couple in an RV to my boat (even though the warranty said I had to take the boat to my dealer. The couple were retired Catalina employees and today do contract work for Catalina. Basically they travel the East Coast and do the warranty work. They were very nice and spent a full day doing misc. small repairs. Like I said, I thought Catlina's support and warranty service were excellent.

You might ask Catalina if they have a warranty rep who could inspect the boat while in the water. Especially realizing that it will not list on a trailer.

2nd point, just to mention, I have never seen my boat list at all and have a similar motor to yours. Must be a manufacturing defect, maybe mold thickness??

Good Luck, please keep us informed.

JKEY on "All Keyed Up"

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5882 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2003 : 13:31:39

Although it is possible that the list is caused by a design or manufacturing defect, the likelihood is that it is caused by uneven loading of the boat after it left the factory, and that is not a defect in design or manufacturing. The weight of a Honda 9.9 would no doubt be partially responsible. If, in addition to that, the potable water tank is full, then the motor and the water tank could, alone, account for the list. If you add a second battery, that would also contribute to the list. If you add weight to the starboard side without also adding weight to the port side, to compensate for the weight added to the starboard side, the boat will list to starboard. It doesn't take much of an imbalance to make our smallish boats list.

When the manufacturer knows that the overwhelming probability is that the boat is listing because of the way it has been loaded, it is not unreasonable for them to ask you to unload the boat, to see if the problem goes away. If it does not, then you have a legitimate complaint, and Catalina should take care of it.

When I took my outboard motor in for repair a couple of years ago, the shop didn't repair it correctly the first try, and I had to unmount my motor and lug it in to the shop two more times before they got it right. It was a nuisance to lug my motor back and forth like that, and it would have been nice if they sent someone over to unmount it and take it into the shop for me, since it was their fault that they didn't repair it correctly the first time, but that just isn't the way things are done in the real world. I considered myself fortunate that they only charged me the amount of their original estimate, instead of trying to justify a padded bill, to compensate them for the extra time they spent on my motor.

A warranty only requires that the manufacturer correct a known defect, not a suspected defect. Although it might be good PR to do otherwise, a manufacturer is not required to compensate the buyer for incidental inconvenience that might be occasioned by the problem.

Your best bet is to just unload the boat as they ask, and if the problem is still there, insist that they correct it.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2003 : 13:38:32

I know this seems over simplified, but sometimes we overlook a lot of things.

I think I can make out the stbd bowline [dockline on bow, not the knot] in your picture and it looks to be slacked, but how about the spring line and the stbd stern line. We thought at one point that our boat had a list, until we realized that the water level was up and the spring lines on the dockside were actually rolling the boat a bit.

Like I said, its probably a stupid thought on my part, but I figured I would throw it out there.

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - Duane Wolff on 05/14/2003 16:17:10

Edited by - on

jkey6
1st Mate

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71 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2003 : 15:53:00

After reading Duane's note, I looked at your photo again and it appears the starboard shroud rigging is very slack. No cause for the list but it is odd to be so loose.

JKEY

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2003 : 16:16:17

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
After reading Duane's note, I looked at your photo again and it appears the starboard shroud rigging is very slack. No cause for the list but it is odd to be so loose.

JKEY

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I think that is actually a burgee halyard....take a closer look..

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2003 : 16:46:54

The slack line appears to me to be a halyard led off <applause>. I hate marinas...cus inveribly someone has not carried a halyard away from the mast.

Knowing Oscar is a long time sailor... and disciplined enough to earn a flight crew position... I'd give him the benefit of knowing what would be contributing on his part to the boats listing.

On the other side... Catalina and most businesses probably take the initial approach that their dealing with someone who knows little and only after some dialog do they come to terms with the savvy that they may be dealing with. I think Catalina is a business however that listens... and wants to hear what might be wrong with production.

Got an idea...I will report the results of it shortly...

addendum...I just submitted a tech tip to Catalina about cutting the V berth hatch cover fore and aft rather than athwardship... to ease access to the spacious V berth locker... Sent it by email which Frank Butler hates... Lets see if it gets a response, how long it takes, and if the suggestion finds acceptance. Will keep y'all informed.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 05/14/2003 17:25:08

Edited by - on

Tray
Navigator

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Namibia
224 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2003 : 17:16:16

Oscar,

You have a sh*&#y dealer. I have had many troubles with my new boat, which have almost all been resolved, and my dealer has been there for me every step of the way, referring me to Catalina only when they were stumped. If you're not getting the help you desire from your dealer, call Catalina directly and speak with Frank Butler. He has taken my calls before concerning my centerboard cable problem and was very concerned about helping an unhappy customer.

Tray
C-250WB #554
"Weeny Bean"
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da37b3127cce963eb621ece90000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Sailor Vic
1st Mate

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56 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2003 : 00:54:58

Catalina refuses to come work on my 2002 250wk (and I'm in the same state as the factory!).

Got it in writing from "the man" Frank himself.

He sounds nice but if I have to drag my boat out of the water, then tow it 4 1/2 hours each way, that is NOT a warranty that impresses me!!!!

They sell sailboats without trailers. Guess those that purchase a trailer-less 250wk don't have a warranty at all?

I haven't complained about the slight listing, haven't even called it a "defect," or told them about it, but I do have that as well.

I can't believe that claim that they don't know.

When I took my boat from the dealer, put it into the water it had a slight list!

No stuff was put onto the boat by me, and yet it listed then!

Not a lot, but it was obvious.

"Houston, we have a problem!"

I'm not happy with their warranty policy (and I will never buy another NEW Catalina)!

Vic

250wk #660 Lake Oroville (No. Calif.)

p.s.
I am in the market for an additional, larger ocean going sailboat to keep in the San Francisco bay, and it won't be a NEW Catalina this time. I learned my lesson! I'll let the first buyer take care of the warranty issues.
p.s.s.
I do like my 250wk, even with the 3 defects (as well as the starboard slight list) which I guess are my responsibility (I've "fixed" one of the three already) and I plan on keeping it at least for a few more years.

Edited by - on

arlingva
Navigator

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USA
116 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2003 : 22:44:53

I have a slight list to starboard as well. I attribute it to the engine and a extra battery under the sink. I do think it would be a good idea if Catalina were to but something on the port side to counterbalance the newer and heavier 4 stroke engines.

Bill Swanson, C 250, #614

Bill Swanson
C250WK #614

Edited by - on

mmodine
1st Mate

Members Avatar

26 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2003 : 23:52:46

Luna May, 250WK #579, does not have any noticable list, even with the 15 hp Honda on the starboard side.

Two new batteries in the bow may counter-act the weight of this engine front to back, can't tell though as our lake still has ice on it.

"Luna Maya" 250K #579

Edited by - on

jkey6
1st Mate

Members Avatar

71 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2003 : 00:12:40

Oscar,

Is the list the same whether the water ballast tanks are full or empty?

JKEY6

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2003 : 00:27:06

Hello again,

While you were all typing I was sailing, just the guys, (6) four boats.....<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> on the Chesapeake, 15-25 knots, 60+ NM in three days......

A quick responses to all your musings:

The boat has listed since day 1, in Florida, Maryland, at the dock or in the middle of the bay,with or without water ballast in.

What I've added to starboard is some miscellaneous supplies. (aaa batteries, a Chapman's, suntan lotion, Beans.....)But, similar quantities were place in the port settee. To give you all an idea of the force involved, it takes me, (170 lbs), hanging on the port shrouds with all my weight outboard to straighten the boat. That is a lot of momentum, period, and is nowhere near the magnitude of the force exerted by the Honda close to the centerline. Furthermore, the boat was designed to counteract the weight of an engine. (Catalina's own words) It should list to port without an engine.

The water tank and battery are on the center line.

Arlyn gets the prize, I lead my halyards off in port. I don't like getting up to do that in the middle of the night when the wind picks up.

I want the dealer I bought the boat from out of the loop. He's 1000 miles away. I'll drag the boat to a local dealer to take a look at it. I won't pay for any yard time, unless the propblem is clearly caused by me.

If it comes down to it I will take all my stuff off the boat and take pictures, then I will the fly to CA and personally put them on Frank Butlers desk.

No reaction from Catalina yet.

I'll report on the first major shakedown sail in brisk winds on open water in another thread.

Oscar
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/LKforumshot.jpg" border=0>
Lady Kay 250 WB #618
In the driveway in Behtlehem, PA ready to go anytime.

Edited by - Oscar on 05/18/2003 00:33:46

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2003 : 16:57:57

Ha.....!

Without mention of my poison-pen e-mail I got a call from the man himself......(Frank Butler). After some back and forth he agreed to hook me up with the nearest dealer, and I can drag the boat over there for them to take a look at.......he also mentioned that they had considered sending me three hundred pounds of lead to put in the port settee.....<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
Progress is being made, stay tuned.

Oscar
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/LKforumshot.jpg" border=0>
Lady Kay 250 WB #618
In the driveway in Behtlehem, PA ready to go anytime.

Edited by - on

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