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 Upgrade Navigation Lights
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mabbaticchio
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/17/2023 :  11:26:14  Show Profile
I have a 79 Cat 25 with in hull nav lights. The lights need to be replaced or upgraded. Catalindirect has an LED replacement, however they have a side note recommending upgrading to pulpit mounted lights. If anyone has done anything like this can you provide some tips on how to run the wiring? I need to get a pair of wires from the pulpit to the inside Settee area near the companionway which is where the house battery and switch panel live.

Michael Abbaticchio

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1889 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2023 :  14:44:50  Show Profile  Visit Leon Sisson's Homepage
Personally, I really like the original 1979 whale eye lights in the topsides below the rub rail.  On my Catalina 22, I have the single red/green nav light mounted to the pulpit.  I think they can look a bit ambiguous straight on from a distance, and it's a sitting duck for damage approaching docks. 

I upgraded my whale eye lights with new lenses and sockets, red/green LED bulbs, and better protective covers in the anchor locker.  I rewired my boat using marine grade electrical cable and tinned copper terminals, crimped then soldered, and heat shrink tubing. I added RTV silicone sealant inside the heat shrink anywhere near the bilges.

If I had it to do over again (which I did when I got a Catalina 22), I'd use tinned copper crimp terminals with hot-glue-lined heat shrink insulating sleeves and a mini heat gun.

As for routing wiring, I found I could hide a few small wires behind the teak trim at the hull-deck seam.  I ran larger bundles between the hull and liner.  I avoided long unsupported runs by adding P-clamps and/or PVC electrical conduit.

— Leon Sisson
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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1757 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2023 :  05:56:21  Show Profile
I kept my original lights but added LED tri-color on mast, which works very well.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9044 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2023 :  06:56:54  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by bigelowp

I kept my original lights but added LED tri-color on mast, which works very well.

Peter: Does this mean you display two sets of red-green? (Just curious...)

BTW (to whomever), when re-doing running lights, be aware the USCG regs do not allow for putting LED bulbs into fixtures made for incandescents. The combination could fail to show the proper color or be visible at the required distance. In particular, LEDs behind colored lenses are problematic. They want LEDs to be in fixtures that were made and certified for the specific bulbs--in other words, they want the units replaced, not modified. And yes, you're not likely to be called on this (unless they spot you at night). Full disclosure: I did put an LED nav-certified white bulb under my clear anchor light lens. I don't think they care about that, and it's distinctly brighter than the original. But who knows...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge
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mabbaticchio
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2023 :  20:43:23  Show Profile
Thanks for the information

quote:
Originally posted by Leon Sisson

Personally, I really like the original 1979 whale eye lights in the topsides below the rub rail.  On my Catalina 22, I have the single red/green nav light mounted to the pulpit.  I think they can look a bit ambiguous straight on from a distance, and it's a sitting duck for damage approaching docks. 

I upgraded my whale eye lights with new lenses and sockets, red/green LED bulbs, and better protective covers in the anchor locker.  I rewired my boat using marine grade electrical cable and tinned copper terminals, crimped then soldered, and heat shrink tubing. I added RTV silicone sealant inside the heat shrink anywhere near the bilges.

If I had it to do over again (which I did when I got a Catalina 22), I'd use tinned copper crimp terminals with hot-glue-lined heat shrink insulating sleeves and a mini heat gun.

As for routing wiring, I found I could hide a few small wires behind the teak trim at the hull-deck seam.  I ran larger bundles between the hull and liner.  I avoided long unsupported runs by adding P-clamps and/or PVC electrical conduit.


Michael Abbaticchio
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mabbaticchio
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2023 :  20:48:51  Show Profile
No. I haven't hooked up the electrical yet as it's a newly acquired C25, but I am almost 100 percent sure the whale eye nav lights are not going to work. Catalina direct sells the LED upgraded fixtures with a recommendation that Pulpit lighting is better as the the originals can be hard to see if the boat is heeling or is in weather. So I was thinking of just abandoning (disconnecting) the orginal in favor of an LED Pulpit mounted fixture(s). I was just looking for ideas on how to
run some brand new wiring for the new fixtures.


quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

quote:
Originally posted by bigelowp

I kept my original lights but added LED tri-color on mast, which works very well.

Peter: Does this mean you display two sets of red-green? (Just curious...)

BTW (to whomever), when re-doing running lights, be aware the USCG regs do not allow for putting LED bulbs into fixtures made for incandescents. The combination could fail to show the proper color or be visible at the required distance. In particular, LEDs behind colored lenses are problematic. They want LEDs to be in fixtures that were made and certified for the specific bulbs--in other words, they want the units replaced, not modified. And yes, you're not likely to be called on this (unless they spot you at night). Full disclosure: I did put an LED nav-certified white bulb under my clear anchor light lens. I don't think they care about that, and it's distinctly brighter than the original. But who knows...


Michael Abbaticchio
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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1757 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2023 :  06:36:50  Show Profile
Dave,

Sorta. Yes I run two sets but only white stern light works, not the original hull mounted red & green. I do almost no after dark sailing however when my son was in High School and College he sailed often late afternoon into the night and never had an issue or complaint (read police/CG warning) from doing so. Anchoring light does work.

Michael,

Lights not working would most likely be caused by connections at either the light(s) or on/off circuit, which should be easy to fix. If requiring a total rewire then that could be far more problematic. I considered rewiring the forward lights but opted for masthead trim-color as it would be seen farther regardless of angle of heel. Again, as I am not a night sailor, at the time, was a simpler and I thought safer option. FYI where I sail the police are far more focused on powerboats than sail.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9044 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2023 :  08:37:07  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by bigelowp

FYI where I sail the police are far more focused on powerboats than sail.
...as they should be, especially after dark when kids run into things like breakwaters at high speeds and kill people. (Case in point in CT about a week ago.) Around me, we have the USCG Academy as well as Station New London... Patrols are often out with new Coasties or cadets, showing them how to do a boarding inspection and enforce the regs. I've "welcomed" them a couple of times, and once a mechanic out testing my engine at launch was boarded--a little worrisome for him, but fortunately I had everything on board.

I presume you know that technically a boat is to have one set of the prescribed lights on at a time, where the 360-degree anchor light can serve under power in place of (not addition to) the stern and steaming lights. The issues are only likely to come up in the investigation of an accident, where "confusing" lighting can be used against you. ("But judge, I had all of my lights on all over the place!")

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/20/2023 08:40:49
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mabbaticchio
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2023 :  17:47:49  Show Profile
I am in the same area. I'm in Killingworth and will be cruising the sound once I get it all together.. I am not planning on running the original lights. I am leaning towards installing pulpit mounted LED fixtures and running new wiring.

quote:
Originally posted by bigelowp

Dave,

Sorta. Yes I run two sets but only white stern light works, not the original hull mounted red & green. I do almost no after dark sailing however when my son was in High School and College he sailed often late afternoon into the night and never had an issue or complaint (read police/CG warning) from doing so. Anchoring light does work.

Michael,

Lights not working would most likely be caused by connections at either the light(s) or on/off circuit, which should be easy to fix. If requiring a total rewire then that could be far more problematic. I considered rewiring the forward lights but opted for masthead trim-color as it would be seen farther regardless of angle of heel. Again, as I am not a night sailor, at the time, was a simpler and I thought safer option. FYI where I sail the police are far more focused on powerboats than sail.


Michael Abbaticchio
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mabbaticchio
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2023 :  17:52:44  Show Profile
How was it running wiring up the mast? The hull mounted lights are pretty cool but they are pretty corroded out. I have to see if I can get them completely out to inspect the wiring. I guess if the wiring is still good the easiest fix might be to just purchase the led replacement lamps and mounts from catalinadirect.

quote:
Originally posted by bigelowp

Dave,

Sorta. Yes I run two sets but only white stern light works, not the original hull mounted red & green. I do almost no after dark sailing however when my son was in High School and College he sailed often late afternoon into the night and never had an issue or complaint (read police/CG warning) from doing so. Anchoring light does work.

Michael,

Lights not working would most likely be caused by connections at either the light(s) or on/off circuit, which should be easy to fix. If requiring a total rewire then that could be far more problematic. I considered rewiring the forward lights but opted for masthead trim-color as it would be seen farther regardless of angle of heel. Again, as I am not a night sailor, at the time, was a simpler and I thought safer option. FYI where I sail the police are far more focused on powerboats than sail.


Michael Abbaticchio
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SKS
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2023 :  16:04:28  Show Profile
I'd recommend abandoning the whale eye lights and installing the pulpit mounted navigation light. You need to remove the bow pulpit and drill a hole through the hull in one of the legs. You can then drill a hole in the center of the pulpit and fish wire through the tubing. You can install the bow light on a mount from Catalina Direct.
https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-380390/electrical/navigation-lights/navigation-light-bracket-ss-clamp-on/?SearchResults=1
Aquasignal stopped making the model 25 light. You can get an LED equivalent from Pactrade. It's Chinese, but what isn't.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00I0DR4VW?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

Edited by - SKS on 08/21/2023 16:06:46
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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1757 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2023 :  18:04:01  Show Profile
"Lady E" suggests the practical approach. In my case the wire up the mast was not an issue as the mast is hollow with antenna wire already going through. In my case night sailing is not a priority. Do what is best for your location, budget and use.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT
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mabbaticchio
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2023 :  18:12:17  Show Profile
Thank you. This is great information.

quote:
Originally posted by SKS

I'd recommend abandoning the whale eye lights and installing the pulpit mounted navigation light. You need to remove the bow pulpit and drill a hole through the hull in one of the legs. You can then drill a hole in the center of the pulpit and fish wire through the tubing. You can install the bow light on a mount from Catalina Direct.
https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-380390/electrical/navigation-lights/navigation-light-bracket-ss-clamp-on/?SearchResults=1
Aquasignal stopped making the model 25 light. You can get an LED equivalent from Pactrade. It's Chinese, but what isn't.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00I0DR4VW?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details


Michael Abbaticchio
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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5312 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2023 :  18:25:44  Show Profile
I’d agree that you should add a red/green bow light on you bow. My light is mounted just underneath the bow pulpit railing on a stainless steel plate. The light in this location was hit by not one, but two, passing sailors a few years back. Instead, may I suggest that you mount the fixture at the BASE of the bow pulpit forward of the forestay chainplate. It would be easy to attach and simple to wire into the existing cables. If you don’t trust the cables, you could run a new #12 or #14 tinned red-black pair from your switch panel and the bow along the port-side hull-deck joint.
Which fixture should you use?
You might use a combination red-green fixture like the one offered by Catalina Direct.
Or you can purchase a dual fixture red and green LED pair that you can mount on opposite sides of the bow.
Rewire and replace the fixtures, you’ll never look back…

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain — Milford, CT
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mabbaticchio
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2023 :  19:06:29  Show Profile
Thanks for the info ! I still need to inspect what the existing wires look like. I was looking at individual red and green nav lights that mount on either side of the pulpit as well. The bracket is designed to prevent spillover of one color to the opposite side. A littl more pricey though and some extra wiring.

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

I’d agree that you should add a red/green bow light on you bow. My light is mounted just underneath the bow pulpit railing on a stainless steel plate. The light in this location was hit by not one, but two, passing sailors a few years back. Instead, may I suggest that you mount the fixture at the BASE of the bow pulpit forward of the forestay chainplate. It would be easy to attach and simple to wire into the existing cables. If you don’t trust the cables, you could run a new #12 or #14 tinned red-black pair from your switch panel and the bow along the port-side hull-deck joint.
Which fixture should you use?
You might use a combination red-green fixture like the one offered by Catalina Direct.
Or you can purchase a dual fixture red and green LED pair that you can mount on opposite sides of the bow.
Rewire and replace the fixtures, you’ll never look back…


Michael Abbaticchio
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Volksaholic
1st Mate

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55 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2023 :  22:07:21  Show Profile
quote:
If you don’t trust the cables, you could run a new #12 or #14 tinned red-black pair from your switch panel and the bow along the port-side hull-deck joint.



Not that heavier wire would hurt anything, other than being more expensive and stiffer/thicker to run, but if you're switching to LED lights you can run lighter gauge wire. I'd guess #18 or #16 at the heaviest. Catalina Direct doesn't tell how much current the replacement bow lights draw, but Defender has some incandescent bow lights that they say are 25 watt and Perko LED lights that they list at 10 watt.

Paul
1981 Catalina 25 TR/FK
Soon to be named either Fiddler's Dream or Fool's Errand depending on what it takes to get her into shape
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mabbaticchio
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2023 :  07:25:21  Show Profile
Yes. I was thinking 16 gauge would be sufficient for the LED nav fixture. I had to abandon all the existing cabin lighting as well because of corrosion. It was way more economical to use LED strip lighting rather than replace 5 or 6 incandescent fixtures. That will also be wired to the house circuit with 16 gauge marine wire. I am sure lighter wires can be safely used but for illogical reasons that seems wrong to me

quote:
Originally posted by Volksaholic

quote:
If you don’t trust the cables, you could run a new #12 or #14 tinned red-black pair from your switch panel and the bow along the port-side hull-deck joint.



Not that heavier wire would hurt anything, other than being more expensive and stiffer/thicker to run, but if you're switching to LED lights you can run lighter gauge wire. I'd guess #18 or #16 at the heaviest. Catalina Direct doesn't tell how much current the replacement bow lights draw, but Defender has some incandescent bow lights that they say are 25 watt and Perko LED lights that they list at 10 watt.


Michael Abbaticchio
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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5312 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2023 :  19:45:37  Show Profile
To determine the proper wire gauge, I use the 3% voltage drop wire size table found on page 458 of Don Casey’s classic Complete Sailboat Maintenance Manual. If you use a 10W bulb, you need about 0.9Amps. If it’s located about 20 feet from the panel, the round trip distance is 40ft. This requires 16 AWG wire. For 25W bulb, this is approximately 2 Amps, so at 40ft you’d need 14 AWG wire. If you have two light fixtures pulling 4-5 Amps total, you’ll need 12 AWG
Of course, LEDs require less operating current than incandescent lamps. Nonetheless, I’d recommend at least 14 AWG wire in case you’d like to double up the lights, add an interior light, or you decide to use an incandescent bulb in the future.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain — Milford, CT
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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5312 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2023 :  04:45:37  Show Profile
For auxiliary lighting in the cabin, I have 3 Luci solar lights for just chilling out or if I need to spotlight a particular area (opposite head sink, behind companionway ladder, inside seat lockers). I still have my cabin wiring that works, so I replaced the old square plastic fixtures with a variety of LED RV fixtures, but don’t really use them very often.
As I recall, the cabin light circuit is a pair of 14 AWG stranded wires (positive and ground) that start at the electrical panel and run up to the vee berth underneath the port side hull deck joint with lights tapped off at regular intervals, then the wire returns on starboard all the way to the quarterberth. If there’s a break anywhere along the way, all downstream lights will not work.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain — Milford, CT
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Vice Commodore
Sam Bruce

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2023 :  15:12:32  Show Profile
I replaced mine with the Catalina direct LED package.
They work fine.
soldered the wires to ensure connection and taped.

Sam Bruce 2016-2024 Association Vice-Commodore (vicecommodore at catalina-capri-25s.org)
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