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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Water Ballast versus Wing Keel & Older versus Newe

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zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1311 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/08/2021 : 09:28:08

For sure nothing new for old hands but for us, who only experienced the water ballast version of the Catalina 250, here are some first impressions now that we own both types and will have to make a decision which of the two we will favor more...

First impressions Water ballast versus Wing keel
WK Boarding while boat is on the trailer requires an additional short ladder
WK Wheel somewhat obstructing when boarding from the swim ladder
Wk Love the extra headroom... Johanna can stand up straight
WK Appreciate full access of the aft berth and "swinging", companion way steps
Wk Takes more to tow/stop the extra weight and is more prone to winds but presents no problems for "heavier", tow vehicle
Wk Cabin appears overall to be more spacious

Henk & Johanna
"Floating", a few off your "barnacles".
"Someday Lady" '95 C250WB #151 ('03 - 2016)
"Sea ya" 30ft Bayliner (04-2018 - 09-2018)
"Mariah" '96 C250WB #191 (05-2019 - 15-05-2023)
"Lady J" '00 C250WK #499 (05-2021 - 09-2022)

Edited by - zeil on 09/24/2021 18:46:32

DavidCrosby
Navigator

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USA
233 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2021 : 16:00:13

I had posted these pictures many years ago. Reposting since the topic is fitting:

Aft Berth - top of cushion to bottom of cockpit.

My lovely bride showing the difference in headroom.

Measurements showing difference in headroom.

David Crosby "Small World"
'02 C250 WK #614

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4012 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2021 : 17:12:23

WK=No lifting mechanism or water ballast tank maintenance. That alone gets my vote.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4299 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2021 : 19:16:10

I'd go for the headroom every time.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9047 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2021 : 19:54:12

Am I seeing that right--about 13" more cabin headroom? I had always heard it was about 5", as it appears on the aftberth comparison. That's HUGE!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

wm36
1st Mate

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USA
69 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2021 : 19:25:11

I am on and off my trailer a couple times a year, so the WB is a winner for me. Would love the head room but I have enough "stories" from the boat ramp with my WB. Can't imagine the extra depth needed for the WK.

Wayne & Lynn
Hillsboro OR
1995 C250 WB #151

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1311 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2021 : 18:43:10

Few "older versus newer" observations

Newer
1) shrouds placed farther inboard... stronger? weaker? more awkward?
2) shorter spreaders... for easier mast raising
3) deck extended jib car tracks for use with 135% or larger jibs
4) entree coaming step from shore to cockpit
5) stern cat seats
6) propane tank in coaming locker
7) door handle to head improved
8) galley cup & dish holder added
9) mast raising system from anchor locker to trailer
10) block attachment plate below mast tabernacle added
11) closed cell foam cockpit cushions, seats, etc.
12) extra set of gudgeons for stern mast carrier and rudder
13) fresh water tank inlet located in anchor locker

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5882 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2021 : 18:59:21

quote:
Originally posted by zeil

Few "older versus newer" observations

Newer
1) shrouds placed farther inboard... stronger? weaker? more awkward?
2) shorter spreaders...

I haven't sailed that version, but the inboard shrouds and shorter spreaders should enable you to trim the jib closer inboard, and that should enable the boat to sail a bit closer to the wind.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9047 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2021 : 13:12:12

quote:
Originally posted by zeil

Few "older versus newer" observations...

Several of the differences Henk describes are what I recall of the differences between WK and WB from the beginning, like shrouds and spreaders. Early on, I believe only the WK offered a 135% jib, enabled by the different standing rigging. A few things are changes made to the deck/cabin mold in the Mk II version (not sure when) when the windows were reconfigured.

But it's good to be aware of differences and changes--they can add value beyond a simple difference in age.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/26/2021 13:41:02

SailAway
1st Mate

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USA
46 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2021 : 09:23:19

David Crosby (WK #614) and I (WB #649) sail together and even though both boats were built in 2002, we have noticed many differences between them. One of the issues I have is the jib tracks. The tracks on David's boat extend more forward than mine do. With the jib cars all the way forward, David is able to get really good shape on his jib. I am unable to get my jib cars far enough forward to get good shape. When sheeted in, the top half always seems to be luffing. I have a 110% and I believe David has a 100%.

Greg Franklin
2002 C250 WB #649
Carlyle, IL

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2021 : 10:52:42

Earlier boats (including my prior 1998 boat) had an all-acrylic companionway hatch (smoked color). At some point after 1998 they switched to a non-skid fiberglass hatch with a small square insert of smoked acrylic.

Also, the previously mentioned coaming step appeared somewhere between 1997 and 1998 model years, based on the boats that I observed.

Sometime after 1998, Catalina also changed the size and shape of the outboard motor well on the starboard side. I think they made even bigger changes to this in the MkII version.

Does anyone know exactly when the MkII version appeared? It seems like Catalina ended production only a year or two after that.

Also, there were a very few fin keel specimens produced, and I think there were also a few tall mast versions. The latter was probably not a good idea because the boat tend to be over-canvassed even with the standard mast height. I know a couple of you prefer a 135 genoas, but I think there's a reason the vast majority were delivered with a 110.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 09/27/2021 10:53:25

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1311 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2021 : 17:11:34

Seems the likable full acrylic smoked companion sliding hatch must have been standard or offered as an option since our 2000 came with it.

Another improvement made was to include in the hull gel coat "sling", placement locations

And adding a cockpit mounted traveler

Edited by - zeil on 09/29/2021 10:44:45

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9047 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2021 : 20:05:32

quote:
Originally posted by SailAway

David Crosby (WK #614) and I (WB #649) sail together and even though both boats were built in 2002, we have noticed many differences between them...

...like one is a WB and the other a SK.

From the rubrail up and the rubrail down, they are different boats (except the basic hull form), each with advantages and disadvantages. The WB is for trailering, and offers lower draft for the ramp, lower stance and lighter weight on a trailer, less headroom, and is more tender (leading to Catalina not rigging it for a genoa). Catalina almost immediately dropped the 250 fin keel and tall rig options, I suspect due to concerns over tenderness and the perceived market move toward lighter mid-sized sailboats as well as the real move away from small, "affordable" cruising sailboats, which ended the C-250's run, with no successor.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/28/2021 20:13:45

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1311 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2021 : 08:49:09

Any idea how many wing keelers were made or as a percentage of the water ballast production

Did other manufacturers continue producing trailarable 25ft boats when Catalina ended the C250 production in 2019?... Hunter, McGregor etc

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9047 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2021 : 21:10:05

quote:
Originally posted by zeil

Any idea how many wing keelers were made or as a percentage of the water ballast production

Did other manufacturers continue producing trailarable 25ft boats when Catalina ended the C250 production in 2019?... Hunter, McGregor etc

Our Boat Search can give you some samples from which you can extrapolate WK vs WB. From that sample, it appears more WK's were made than WBs, and only a few C-250s were made in their last couple of years. A little over 1000 were made in the full run, compared to >6000 C-25s in fewer years. I recall there were some years when over 700 C-25s were built. So "the handwriting was on the wall..."

MacGregor has closed its doors, Hunter makes nothing between 15' and 31' (...graffiti on the wall.), and Com-Pac offers a 23' Pilothouse that I'll charitably say is for a very boutique audience. (Com-Pac made some lovely little cruisers!)

The marketplace seems to be divided between "sport boats" and cruisers with standing headroom, centerline queens, and wet showers--and toward powerboats with three 300 hp outboards.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/30/2021 21:13:50

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1311 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2021 : 16:08:34

Interesting to know that about equal numbers of wing and water ballast boats were produced

Having crewed on a C25 it not surprising to me that they were produced in such high numbers prior to the C250 series. It was after all, like all Catalinas, well designed, built and is appreciated by its owners. Wonder if anybody has stories of some long distance ocean cruising with C25

There is and IMHO will, always remain a market for these versatile petit cruisers even though markets may wish a foot or two more to include greater comfort the fact remains that the size breathes economy, fun and versatility.

csmcg
1st Mate

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96 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2021 : 11:23:47

MacGregor Yachts became Tattoo Yachts in Stuart, Florida. https://tattooyachts.com/

I can't tell if Tattoo is really an active company or not.

csmcg
1st Mate

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96 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2021 : 11:30:54

I started a thread in the general sailing forum (apologies if it is in the wrong place) describing our situation and choices regarding WK vs WB. I would really appreciate any thoughts folks might have.

Regards, Chris

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