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Heater and things

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zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1311 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/12/2020 : 15:47:56

Living in colder weather we are, in the back of our minds, dreaming of somehow warming the cabin during chilly, wet and damp weather and perhaps even extending the season.

Of course we can use a variety of heaters if shore power is available but what about when we're on the hook.

Just now we received "The Good Old Boat Magazine", which has an article describing a seemingly, simple, workable and economical idea using an existing heat source.

Components such as stainless steel pots and pans, (we used half of a stainless steel pot as a mast crutch) are readily available at any second hand outlet and so should be the other parts

Your thoughts please....

Henk & Johanna
"Floating", a few off your "barnacles".
"Someday Lady" '95 C250WB #151 ('03 - 2016)
"Sea ya" 30ft Bayliner (04-2018 - 09-2018)
"Mariah" '96 C250WB #191 (05-2019 - 15-05-2023)
"Lady J" '00 C250WK #499 (05-2021 - 09-2022)

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5882 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2020 : 18:33:34

I think the vent might get hot enough to melt fiberglass, so you'd have to find some kind of vent that would stay cool enough on the outside to go through to the outside. Possibly something designed for marine diesel furnaces could be adapted.

Also, if liquid has to stay on the stove for long periods, it will put a lot of moisture in the air, which will probably condense on the cool inside surfaces of the hull.

With any combustion type heater, you want to expel combustion gasses and moisture.

Good sleeping bags will keep you warm enough, even without a heater, but putting your feet on the cold floor in the morning is hard to take.

Possibly you could use sleeping bags to keep warm at night, and use a Mr. Heater Buddy propane heater in the morning to warm up the boat quickly. The maker claims their Mr. Heater F232000 MH9BX Buddy Indoor-Safe Portable Radiant Heater is safe, but most people wouldn't trust any unvented heater while they sleep.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3411 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2020 : 20:32:49

I would always be leery of keeping a flame/fire on thru the night in an enclosed cabin. My first choice, especially when dockside in a marina, is to utilize shore power and run a small electric heater and on the low/ medium setting where the coils do not get red hot.
When using sleeping bags, a small heater even set at a fairly low setting is probably all that is needed since the cabin space is a small volume. I would also not leave an electric or any type heater on when the cabin space is not occupied. There are instances when cabin fires have started from heaters left on and not attended.

Okay, if you are not dockside, I could see why you are considering other options. I appreciate you sharing the option you came up with ...I need to study that a bit more...also taking in Steve�s posting.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 03/12/2020 20:37:05

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9047 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2020 : 23:08:30

This reminds me of a "system" I saw described using a clay flower pot inverted on a stove, with a tube affixed to the hole in the pot's bottom and routed to the exterior. The principle was the hot gas from the stove heated the clay pot, which radiated heat to the cabin, and the combustion products (CO, CO2, and H2O) were channeled outside. But I never was comfortable with systems that generate CO and "theoretically" exhaust it from a cabin while its occupants sleep overnight. (Although it it didn't work, you'd never know.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

keats
Navigator

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USA
215 Posts

Response Posted - 03/13/2020 : 05:18:52

I would be leery of that setup either day or night as it most certainly would cause that flame to produce more carbon monoxide than the stove would when used normally.

First, placing a pot around the burner is likely to restrict the flow of air (oxygen) to the flame resulting in incomplete combustion. My guess is you would see soot forming inside the pot and tube eventually and that ain't good.

Second, the "exhaust pipe" would be intended to act as a flue, but it won't. A properly designed flue needs a sufficient vertical component to create an updraft. In the arrangement shown doesn't properly remove the combustion products even under the best conditions, such as no wind against the outlet.

Just putting a pot on the stove and cooking normally will keep the residual heat in your cabin. A cast iron pot would retain heat and re-radiate it into the cabin after the burner is shut off. The clay pot is a good thermal mass/radiant heater but you've got to keep the flame open and burning blue.

Bottom line is that convection burner is not safe for space heating. A portable radiant heater rated at the same btu/hr as that stove (about 8000) would safely and effectively heat the cabin.

Tim Keating
1985 C-25 TR/FK #4940
Midsummer
Lake Don Pedro, CA

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1311 Posts

Response Posted - 03/13/2020 : 15:27:40

Ah... thank you for your initial thoughts and input

Here are some comments. The "heater", would/should only be used to take the chill off and for short periods to remove "dampness" from the cabin. You suggest: No overnight or unattended use ever!! Warm blankets or sleeping bags remain the best solution.

1) The idea of inexpensively heating/warming the cabin with moisture-less hot air by way of a simple heat-exchange device seems a good one. (fun to make)
2) Set-up and starting of the "heater", will be quick and easy, providing the exhaust pipe will fit in a permanent, heat resistant through-hull cavity
3) Storing the compact "heater", when not in use is not a problem
4) The unit, requires no or little maintenance, won't rust or deteriorate

questions and unknowns

1) exhaust fumes
2) is the Princess Seaward or any other stove build to withstand the heat captured by the up-side-down cooking pan
3) sufficient air supply to the burning process of the stove
4) accidentally touching or dislodging any of the heater or exhaust components

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 03/13/2020 : 19:11:03

I have a little experience with this.

The Mr. Buddy heaters that are marketed as indoor safe include instructions that state they should not be used indoors except for emergencies, and that windows and/or doors should be opened a little more than a crack to provide ventilation.

The Mr. Buddy heaters might be junk. We ordered two from Amazon, both of which arrived with broken plastic components. The one from Tractor Supply was fine.

We've used a Mr. Buddy heater to create warmth in the cabin, but not while sleeping.

We've also used a Coleman two burner propane stove to create heat in the cabin temporarily. We cook in the cockpit in the summer but in the cabin in the winter, which helps warm the cabin in winter.

We cracked the v-berth hatch and left a companionway hatchboard out every time we used propane heat.

You can get cheap CO detectors from Amazon, but we don't have any. To be safe, I think I'd put one low by the galley, and one by our noggins wherever we plan to hang in the cabin while a propane heater is burning.

Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/

Edited by - sethp001 on 03/13/2020 19:12:45

csmcg
1st Mate

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96 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2021 : 10:08:13

I completed the installation of a forced-air diesel heater on our 250WK a couple of years ago. It has been wonderful.

I will get some photos of the install and start a new thread.

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3320 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2021 : 14:29:49

I have had a dose of carbon monoxide poisoning and I definitely do not recommend it...not on a boat but in a fishing cabin in the Canadian north.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

csmcg
1st Mate

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96 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2021 : 18:08:55

Hello Derek,

I am sorry to hear about your experience with CO1 poisoning. I hope that things turned out ok and that you did not suffer any lasting effects.

I agree wholeheartedly that CO1 is nothing to mess about with.

I have responded to quite a few CO1 alarm calls but fortunately have only had to do initial on-scene care for one patient.

If your reply was to me regarding the force-air diesel heater install on my boat, the combustion air is drawn from the outside of the boat and the exhaust is vented overboard. All combustion air loop connections are tightly sealed.

Cabin air with a little outside air mixed in is the only thing heated across the exchanger.

I have a CO1 detector within the heater install space and another within the cabin.

I will try to provide some details within the next few days for anyone who might be interested.

Regards, Chris

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1311 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2021 : 18:16:22

quote:
Originally posted by csmcg

Hello Derek,

I am sorry to hear about your experience with CO1 poisoning. I hope that things turned out ok and that you did not suffer any lasting effects.

I agree wholeheartedly that CO1 is nothing to mess about with.

I have responded to quite a few CO1 alarm calls but fortunately have only had to do initial on-scene care for one patient.

If your reply was to me regarding the force-air diesel heater install on my boat, the combustion air is drawn from the outside of the boat and the exhaust is vented overboard. All combustion air loop connections are tightly sealed.

Cabin air with a little outside air mixed in is the only thing heated across the exchanger.

I have a CO1 detector within the heater install space and another within the cabin.

I will try to provide some details within the next few days for anyone who might be interested.

Regards, Chris

Would love to see your description of the installation and photo's (lots of them if possible)

csmcg
1st Mate

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96 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2021 : 01:56:00

Hello Henk,

I put a few photos taken this evening of the heater install in an album in the 250 section. They really need to be accompanied by some explanation which I will try to put into a coherent post/thread soon.

Please disregard the tangle of wires as I am in the midst of re-bundling several wire runs.

I was foolish not to take pictures during the engineering/test-fit phase and am left with trying to get meaningful photos in cramped quarters.

There will also be an image of the combustion intake port added soon. I missed getting that this evening.

Hopefully there is enough now to at least give an impression of how the heater installation is experienced by those on the boat. It is a nice dry heat which helps with drying out damp items and clothing. I am working on a way to control a mixture of external and internal air being heated to reduce the humidity even further.

Crew members don't have to avoid certain areas of the boat or change their behavior when the heater is in use. The most dangerous aspect would be the exhaust port and even then the danger is confined to the inner wall of the port. The port is place in an area infrequently used or touched by crew.

The heater vent is placed in an area unlikely to be touched by children or pets and is unlikely to be accidentally blocked by some random item.

As for energy usage, the heater (2kw version) draws about 9 amps for roughly 1 minute on startup. Running full-bore it draws about 2.5 amps and then drops to idle when the set interior temperature is reached. At idle, the heater draws about .8 amps. Occasionally, depending upon the boats internal temperature, the heater will ramp up for a short period. So an overnight stay, with temps in the mid 40's to low 50's uses about 10 amp hours of battery.

The 200 watt solar bimini replaces this energy in around an hour depending upon conditions.

The installation goal was to be unobtrusive and to take up a minimum of storage space. The trade-off is the difficulty of major maintenance if necessary due to the cramped installation. So far (two years worth of use), the little unit has been trouble free. I am careful to use a 50/50 mix of kerosene and diesel to get a clean burn for prevention of soot buildup, which is the main driver of maintenance issues on these types of heaters.

The dimensions of the 2kw diesel heaters are roughly the same whether they are manufactured by Webasto, Eberspacher, Planar, or one of the various Chinese manufacturers, so this installation technique should? work for all.

Regards, Chris.

Edited by - csmcg on 12/28/2021 09:46:08

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1311 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2021 : 15:55:29

This looks for us, located in colder climates, a good project. Right now the temp has dipped far into the minus and will stay there for awhile it seems

Thanks for providing photos and descriptions from which we're trying to follow the installation. But the third line of your text is obscured while the text obscures the bottom of the photo. (Would be so nice if our forum photo data base could be updated)

In order for the heater installation to work, a more powerful battery, electrical and solar panel collecting system seem to be necessary...

csmcg
1st Mate

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96 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2021 : 22:38:22

I am putting together a proper description of the project with a few explanatory diagrams. I will embed the photos into the post(s) with readable explanations. It will take a bit to put together, but will hopefully be helpful.

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1311 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2022 : 18:13:06

Tempted again to make and try this simple stove heater apporach
What are your thoughts...

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5320 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2022 : 06:48:45

Henk - it�s getting chilly up north for sure, meanwhile, we got three 70�F 21�C days in a row this past week. It was lovely.
Defender Industries sent me an email about heating options for boats.
The one that interested me was a Dickinson Marine Newport Solid Heater .
It will generate between 5000-8000 BTUs, enough for a 25� boat cabin. Of course you have to purchase the flue and installation kit separately, but for < US$1000, you�re keeping warm and toasty in most weather conditions, and safely too.
I like the concept of a wood burning stove - you can use scrap lumber or pellets rather than other fuels, it can be virtually free to run it.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 11/13/2022 06:50:25

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1311 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2022 : 16:39:47

This looks like a very doable solution... thanks

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1311 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2022 : 17:34:54

But still... would the other homemade stove top heater work?...

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5320 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2022 : 08:20:23

Probably comes down to practicalities: how would you do it exactly?
Eliminating the coffee or food pot on top, what kind of flue would you get?
Flex or rigid?
Would it have a rain topper hat, or not?
What cabin top opening would you snake it through?
How would you protect the fiberglass from the hot pipe?
How would you connect the flue to the inverted pot?
Would you place the whole unit on a fireproof base?
Any way to get enough draft air into the stove from below?
There�s probably a lot of engineering or fiddling needed to get it right�

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5320 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2022 : 08:24:09

You still need a CO detector alarm.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1311 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2022 : 20:16:28

quote:
Flex or rigid?
Would it have a rain topper hat, or not?
What cabin top opening would you snake it through?
Thinking of using flexible, bendable aluminum or SS tubing to from the stove going up and out through the
How would you protect the fiberglass from the hot pipe?

How would you connect the flue to the inverted pot?
Would you place the whole unit on a fireproof base?
Any way to get enough draft air into the stove from below?
There�s probably a lot of engineering or fiddling needed to get it right�

Bruce it is a lot of fiddling to get it all working which, in a way, makes the project alluring... but some questions you fielded above will probably put a stop from going ahead.
Here's my thinking
1) I would use a flexible SS or aluminum tube for exhaust fumes
2) Shield and cap the exhaust as it feeds through the hatchway aluminum cut-out made for it in the custom made plexiglass hatch board. The hatch board will have a plexiglass slide-in filler plate for when the stove is not in use
3) the stove exhaust pipe to angle sharply up from the stove and at a more slowly upward angle along the ceiling before exciting through the hatch. This to capture as much heat as possible. It may be required to add a shield protector wherever needed
4) My biggest concern is, however, that not enough cool supply air can be supplied to the stove itself to prevent overheating.
5) Not sure what it would do to my insurance policy and wording

Your reactions, suggestions, ideas or comments

Edited by - zeil on 11/21/2022 10:28:36

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4012 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2022 : 11:10:58

Also the possibility of the smoke/fumes curling back into the cockpit and cabin. Station wagon effect.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5882 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2022 : 11:14:26

If I was serious about spending time on the boat in cold weather, I'd opt for a purpose-built system, such as the Dickinson, and install it according to the manufacturer's instructions. If I only wanted to occasionally spend a couple nights at a time on the boat in cold weather, I'd rely on a good sleeping bag. Sleeping bags are rated for certain temperature ranges. If you use one that's rated for the temperature, you'll be warm. I put my trousers and shirt into the bag with me so they'll be warm when I dress in the morning. In the morning I make coffee on the stove, which heats up the boat a bit. I wouldn't trust a DIY system.

I've spent as much as a week or ten days on the boat in freezing or near freezing weather using a sleeping bag, and the worst part is stepping on the cold floor in the morning with bare feet, but shoes and socks go on quickly.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 11/21/2022 11:18:50

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1311 Posts

Response Posted - 11/23/2022 : 16:22:32

Ah...okay there then seems to be no homemade, inexpensive or safe way to space heat the interior but to use commercial available diesel, electrical or wood burning devices.

Heating the interior in (our), colder climates also results having to deal with condensation settling on everything and everywhere particularly the cabin roof, aft berth, hull, coamings and little or non ventilated areas including bedding and storage. Ventilating during and after heating becomes a must.

For that reason sticking, as suggested, with quality sleeping wear and warm clothing is choice

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