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dasreboot
Admiral

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804 Posts
Initially Posted - 10/08/2018 :  16:01:55  Show Profile  Visit dasreboot's Homepage
If you are a member of 'all things sailing' on facebook, here is a swing keel sinking post. apparently large waves caused the keel cable to separate.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/Sailing/permalink/2237250269848300/
Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts
Response Posted - 10/08/2018 :  21:25:39  Show Profile
Couldn't see anything there, but it's an old story. I wonder about the maintenance regime on this one... We had a member here whose boat sank twice in her slip--so he spent a bundle and converted it to a wing. Catalina offered a conversion kit with a lead keel that fit up into the swing keel trunk. Shipping to Long Island and labor were significant factors. (As far as I know, the kit is no longer available.)
Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge
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dasreboot
Admiral

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804 Posts
Response Posted - 10/09/2018 :  04:38:48  Show Profile  Visit dasreboot's Homepage
Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com
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LakeFall
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts
Response Posted - 10/09/2018 :  04:51:13  Show Profile
It would suggest that his keel was winched up while docked. Its kinda like setting a mousetrap and putting your finger in the middle hoping it doesn't go off. SK should only rarely be winched up and that's if you hit shallow water or you are loading on your trailer.
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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5353 Posts
Response Posted - 10/09/2018 :  06:49:49  Show Profile
Thanks to Todd - for posting the screenshot for the benefit of us “outlanders” who have opted not to use FB.
What a catastrophe! I thought about whether there’s enough depth in their slip to accommodate a down keel and of course there is given the boat is sunk and covered to about 3 ft above it’s normal waterline. No telling how shallow the water is between the slip and the main waterbody. That could’ve compelled the owner to keep the keel retracted in the slip.
Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain — Milford, CT
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dasreboot
Admiral

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804 Posts
Response Posted - 10/09/2018 :  07:40:15  Show Profile  Visit dasreboot's Homepage
When i had a swing keel, I retracted it in the slip b/c I was in a 4 foot deep slip. Guess it would have just hit the mud if it broke.
Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com
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Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts
Response Posted - 10/09/2018 :  09:20:12  Show Profile
quote:
I wonder about the maintenance regime on this one...

Yes, it would be nice to know when the lifting hardware was changed.

I had my C25 out in some significant waves with the keel both up and down. Also my boat spent all of it's time in saltwater 365 days a year. The keel was always raised at the dock because of the tides. But, I replaced the keel cable just about every two and a half years.
Davy J


2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay
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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts
Response Posted - 10/10/2018 :  18:36:37  Show Profile
I don't consider it an issue, but maintenance is essential with a swing keel. My keel stays down in fresh and salt and only partially retracted in a shallow slip. A shallow approach means crank it and back down.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle
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Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts
Response Posted - 10/11/2018 :  07:38:52  Show Profile  Visit Lee Panza's Homepage
I think some people may be overly concerned about the swing-keel grounding-out at the dock. If you look at the geometry of the swing-keel assembly it's evident that the keel will want to move aft and upward when it contacts a hard bottom. The entire bottom edge of the keel is aft of the pivot, so pushing up on it tends to cause it to rotate as it rises. Initially, at least, it would tend to push the hull forward, but if it's free to slide along the ground the bottom edge of the keel will gradually move aftward - especially if the hull moves around a bit with any current, chop, or wind activity.

In mud it will work its way into the bottom, and as it meets increasing resistance it will be pushed aftward.

My biggest concern in this regard would be that the cable will loosen around the winch drum and the last few coils will reposition themselves overlapping one another. There should be several turns of cable remaining around the drum when the keel is fully deployed, to reduce the stress on the clamp at the end, and we should want them to lie close and parallel so the cable winds neatly as the keel is raised. Overlapping coils put crimps in the cable, slightly weakening it, and they are quite unnerving when they reposition themselves during raising; the keel drops a little when that happens, and the jerk when the cable goes taut feels (and sounds) very worrisome. It also imposes a spike load on the cable and its connection to the keel, and if either component happens to be almost ready to fail that additional load could be all it takes.

As Dave B. pointed out, maintenance (in this case that includes periodic replacement) is a necessary part of owning a swinger. If we just accept that fact it's no big deal - just something else to be done on a regular basis. To me the advantages of the swing keel easily justify this added maintenance, but to each his own.
The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)
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oldengineer1949
1st Mate

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USA
75 Posts
Response Posted - 10/12/2018 :  12:34:21  Show Profile
Hmm ... definitely some food for thought. Pualani is a swinger, and her current slip at the marina is deeper than 5 feet. Don't know for sure, because her depth finder has long since passed on to the Great Electronic Beyond (shame on me for not replacing it). Anyhoo, I could leave her keel down, but I would be concerned about it grounding in an exceptional low tide, and any rocking in place (we do get some wave action from the occasional commercial traffic passing by) might cause stress on her keel trunk and hanger hardware. Thoughts, y'all? I still believe the bottom line is: sailor-up and order the cable and attachment replacement kit from CD, have her pulled and service/replace the keel lifting assembly. As soon as I get done with my present medical issues, she's headed for a boat lift (present marina has no haul-out facilities).

Regards to all,
Al and Bernadette, "Pualani Nui", '82 C25 SR/SK, homeport MCB Quantico
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts
Response Posted - 10/14/2018 :  10:06:03  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by oldengineer1949

...her current slip at the marina is deeper than 5 feet. Don't know for sure, because her depth finder has long since passed on...
I've used a tape measure... (and then wiped off the salt water.) I agree wave action could be worrisome if the swinger is grounded.
Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge
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oldengineer1949
1st Mate

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USA
75 Posts
Response Posted - 10/17/2018 :  12:38:07  Show Profile
Geez, Dave!!!
*gives Second Lieutenant Salute (slaps forehead, shrugs shoulders)*
A Sounding Line! How could I forget? In use a whole lot longer than our present day electronic sounders with built-in obsolescence. And I have a ruler good for 25 feet. I will so measure. *chuckle* Many thanks.

EDIT 29 Oct 2018: just measured yesterday: two hours past high tide, 5 ft., 7 in. at the waterline. Mean Low Tide is 1 ft, 3 in. lower, so crunching the numbers, Pualani draws 2 ft., 8 in. keel up, so she only has about 2 ft. below her keel in the up position. Lower it, and it is 3 feet into the mud. Her keel will stay up in the slip, and I will budget for CD's rebuild kit for the cable and winch.

Regards,
Al and Bernadette, "Pualani Nui", '82 C25 SR/SK, homeport MCB Quantico
Edited by - oldengineer1949 on 10/29/2018 11:43:10
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kwalsh
1st Mate

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USA
33 Posts
Response Posted - 10/20/2018 :  15:26:11  Show Profile
All,
Has there been any updates to the story of this unfortunate sinking of a Catalina 25 at her slip? Many thanks!
Kevin Walsh
Segelboot
1984 C25, TR/SK
Sail No. 4433
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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5353 Posts
Response Posted - 10/21/2018 :  06:40:01  Show Profile
I’ve watched crews refloat a boat using air bags and pumps.

The diver swims down inside the sunken boat with a few bags and ties them in to secure them, otherwise they might pop out when 1/2 inflated without raising the boat. I watched them do a powerboat (SeaRay, of course).

In our boats they’d probably put a float bag in the Vee berth, one in the salon and head, and another in the quarterberth.

The tricky part, once refloated, is to tow the boat to the haulout area. If your marina doesn’t have one, then you’d need a boat ramp and a suitable trailer.

Glad to know the boat is insured.
Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain — Milford, CT
Edited by - Voyager on 10/22/2018 05:57:55
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jduck00
Captain

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USA
313 Posts
Response Posted - 10/21/2018 :  09:04:54  Show Profile
I keep my keep up at the slip. With the keel down and no weight in the cockpit the stern is too high for my cockpit to drain.

Doesn't worry me. I stay on top of the maintenance.
Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850
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AlMo
1st Mate

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USA
55 Posts
Response Posted - 10/22/2018 :  10:52:50  Show Profile
Lee,
All very good points. Anyone apply Marine grease to the cable, may help prevent kinking caused by stacking. So hard to inspect too when out of the water unless you have a boat hoist!
quote:
Originally posted by Lee Panza

I think some people may be overly concerned about the swing-keel grounding-out at the dock. If you look at the geometry of the swing-keel assembly it's evident that the keel will want to move aft and upward when it contacts a hard bottom. The entire bottom edge of the keel is aft of the pivot, so pushing up on it tends to cause it to rotate as it rises. Initially, at least, it would tend to push the hull forward, but if it's free to slide along the ground the bottom edge of the keel will gradually move aftward - especially if the hull moves around a bit with any current, chop, or wind activity.

In mud it will work its way into the bottom, and as it meets increasing resistance it will be pushed aftward.

My biggest concern in this regard would be that the cable will loosen around the winch drum and the last few coils will reposition themselves overlapping one another. There should be several turns of cable remaining around the drum when the keel is fully deployed, to reduce the stress on the clamp at the end, and we should want them to lie close and parallel so the cable winds neatly as the keel is raised. Overlapping coils put crimps in the cable, slightly weakening it, and they are quite unnerving when they reposition themselves during raising; the keel drops a little when that happens, and the jerk when the cable goes taut feels (and sounds) very worrisome. It also imposes a spike load on the cable and its connection to the keel, and if either component happens to be almost ready to fail that additional load could be all it takes.

As Dave B. pointed out, maintenance (in this case that includes periodic replacement) is a necessary part of owning a swinger. If we just accept that fact it's no big deal - just something else to be done on a regular basis. To me the advantages of the swing keel easily justify this added maintenance, but to each his own.
1978 C25 "X Lives" #1035
SR/SK
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Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts
Response Posted - 10/22/2018 :  13:38:55  Show Profile  Visit Lee Panza's Homepage
I actually did grease the cable, rather liberally, last time I replaced it. Other than making it extremely difficult to work with as I put things back together it hasn't seemed to make a lot of difference. I greased the entire winch assembly as well, and it may have retarded the inevitable rusting a bit.

I'm not sure if greasing the cable was a good idea or not. It may interfere with getting oxygen-rich water to the inner wires, which is what stainless steel needs in order to protect itself. When I replace it at next haul-out I'll examine it carefully.
The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)
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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.