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Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2017 : 12:01:53

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

There's a lot to be said for downsizing your lifestyle. It opens up options to you. Selling your home turns it into cash, which is then available to supplement your retirement income or enables you to buy a car. You are free from the costs and chores connected with maintaining it, and the property taxes that come with it. You can live aboard, which is a very inexpensive lifestyle, or you can buy a smaller home in the locale of your choice, or you can rent an apartment if you wish. When you pass on, probating your estate will be greatly simplified, or perhaps even avoided altogether, saving your heirs an unpleasant and costly chore. It isn't the right choice for everyone, but the possibilities should be considered.

Good points to ponder.

And my wife considers boat maintenance and upkeep outside of the DIY stuff the alternative to paying for lights, gas or water at home.

However we justify it, eh?

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2017 : 19:17:35

Two words, house boat! Solves all the storage issues and if there's no wind you can still make progress!

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2017 : 19:21:11

quote:
Originally posted by Kper

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

quote:
Originally posted by Kper

...Besides, she's looking in the $75k+ department!
Nah! Not unless she insists on one from the factory.

At the moment she's eyeballing a Celestial 48 - $150k! Keep in mind we retire in a couple years and her plans are to live aboard starting in the Great Lakes and eventually making it southeast. We've already sold the large house and have since fixed up a cracker box that should be easy to flip for the transition.

I'm looking forward to it but all this is actually her dream. Honestly, I'm pretty nervous about it.

Take the great loop and swing on by Texas. By the time you get here you'll be missing your C25 so much I will be able to talk you into buying mine!

Maybe you could use it for a dingy or even your man cave.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 08/15/2017 19:21:34

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2017 : 10:30:45

Trawler, motor sailer.

Frank Hopper

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2017 : 11:04:12

quote:
Originally posted by pastmember

Trawler, motor sailer.

She actually wants to compare center cockpits to motor sailors. Good or bad, she has a thing with centerline beds... queens to be more specific. She doesn't like crawling over me to get out of bed.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2017 : 05:01:19

Before we decided to go multi hull we were considering Irwin 38 MKII. Centerline berth, center cockpit and if you can find one set-up as a cutter rig all the better.

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2017 : 05:40:32

I read a review about Irwins that had less than favorable comments regarding their construction and blue water capabilities. I have always thought they were commendable until I read that, now I wonder. I'm not sure we will ever venture further than the Caribbean but I don't want my vessel choice to hold us back should we chose to venture further.

I will investigate the 38 MKII.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2017 : 05:59:45

I read a lot of negative stuff about Geminis too. Mostly by people who have never sailed one........

Most of the Irwins are 25-30 years old. I think if they were going to fall apart they would have done so by now.

Plus, if you read hardcore bluewater reviews, you'll see most will recommend against a centerline berth.

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2017 : 06:23:55

A centerline double is nice in calm, protected water with no swells. When the boat starts rolling a little, you'll wish you could snuggle up against the side of the hull--as in a V-berth. Blue-water sailors, when on a passage, tend to prefer single berths amidships--less motion from pitching--with lee-cloths for rolling.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2017 : 07:48:44

Tell my wife that! lol
I'm guessing she'll tell you that she can always retreat to the v-berth.

Kyle
'86 SR/SK/Dinette #5284 "Anodyne"
In the barn where we found her...

Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2017 : 09:00:05

Hi All,

Sorry to say but she will quickly discover that the V birth is the worst possible choice in a sea way. It can be bad enough to actually bounce you off of the ceiling. Dave has it right, one of the singles with a lee cloth or a quarter birth if it isn't too roomy. But you are a lucky man. Wish I had a woman like yours. And the money would certainly help. I new I would be looking to live aboard when I bought my boat but I was really hoping for a C30. Just happens that I happened onto a deal too good to pass up and when the C25s first came out years ago, I really wanted one. In a way I got lucky because I learned right away that my budget would not have been enough to afford the difference in restoration and up keep costs of the bigger boat. I don't remember his name, but the person who was the author's adviser, (The Essentials of Living Aboard a Boat) said that you should get the smallest boat that you can make due with. I don't yet live on mine but that time is not very far away. So I can't say I agree or disagree. Maybe I, (and you) can report back later. One other point. If I had no wish or desire to sail, then yes, I could have afforded the C30. But what a terrible waste. At least IMHO. Best of luck.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

DavidCrosby
Navigator

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USA
236 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2017 : 12:25:05

I sailed across the Atlantic (as crew) on a 47' Beneteau. The forward cabin was extremely nice. Had a big queen bed on a pedestal. The owner of the boat and her partner announced they would be knocking down the table and moving to the center of the boat once we put out to sea.

That huge cabin forward of the mast proved to be only worthy of storing stuff while at sea. One of the crew (in his early 20's) decided he was going to brave trying to sleep up front. He gave up after a couple of hours and moved back into the center of the boat.
My daughter and I each had an aft cabin - and we faired quite nicely in the back of the boat through any and all conditions.

So, yes, while the V-Berth is horrible in a sea way. I would like to note that the owner of this boat has lived about for about 15 years. The vast majority of the time, that forward cabin is perfect for her needs. When she does ocean passages, she just sleeps elsewhere.

David Crosby "Small World"
'02 C250 WK #614

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1773 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2017 : 18:36:06

OP -- "How many here who have sold their boats we're so reluctant that you drug your feet before advertising?"

Earlier this season the Admiral told me she was not comfortable with me hanging over the transom messing with (raising/lowering) the outboard and maybe it was time for a boat with an inboard auxiliary. I told her that what we have is just fine, especially considering how little we were getting out to sail. Soon she was obsessed with our NOT having an outboard. I can't say I have been racing out to find something, especially considering I would have only a beer budget -- and low end at that. However I have been surprised, with minimal effort, to find many excellent options and many -- in better than good condition -- at very low prices. Examples I have looked at include: 82 Cat 27 with diesel, $2,500 (owner retiring from sailing) 79 Pearson 30 with diesel and new sails, $6,500 (guy bought it and does not like sailing - going to power) 74 Tartan 30 with A4, impeccable condition, $5,500 (owner transferred overseas) and a 77 Pearson 10M, diesel, $8,500. (two boat owner) Still, like Kyle, I seem to be dragging my feet. I believe it's because it is what someone else wants, not necessarily what we want!

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Edited by - bigelowp on 08/18/2017 18:37:50

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2017 : 19:58:58

quote:
Originally posted by bigelowp

...However I have been surprised, with minimal effort, to find many excellent options and many -- in better than good condition -- at very low prices. Examples I have looked at include: 82 Cat 27 with diesel, $2,500 (owner retiring from sailing) 79 Pearson 30 with diesel and new sails, $6,500 (guy bought it and does not like sailing - going to power) 74 Tartan 30 with A4, impeccable condition, $5,500 (owner transferred overseas) and a 77 Pearson 10M, diesel, $8,500.

First, don't even get your pulse up before you get a SURVEY! Then ask about the bills for maintenance and (probably sooner then you thought) repowering. "Impeccable"??? More like, "Good enough for the owner who is about to sell her." I once knew of one "impeccable" boat that a friend bought, and guess what?.......

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2017 : 22:50:07

Hello, I thought I'd weigh in since I'm sitting outside, enjoying the peace and quiet by myself at 1:30 a.m. on a Friday night. I enjoyed reading the previous comments.

Our C25 was our first sailboat. We have lived our initial sailing dream with it.

Our C25 was perfect when we had three small kids who fit in the v-berth, but now its tight with five kids - the oldest is sixteen. I always sleep in the cockpit now, which really is great unless it rains. So my wife drove the decision to buy the 30' Morgan to have more space.

I love our C25. I know where everything is and how she works and handles. I've spent the last eight years or so making her exactly how I want her, cleaning her up, updating systems, making the outboard run well including the addition of a voltage regulator, and outfitting her for adventures. She now has all LED navigation, foredeck, and cockpit lights, all LED swivel lights in the cabin, an LED light in the lazarette, a portable DC spotlight, a 4000GPH Rule bilge pump and Super float switch with 2" outlet hose run to a new Forespar thru-hull in the transom, a homemade Arid Bilge, a new 210Ah house battery bank, a Mastervolt shorepower battery charger, a crappy Coleman solar panel and charge controller, a Standard Horizon GX-1700 with GPS, a Ritchie compass, a new replacement Hawk Eye depth sounder, a new replacement SR Instruments knot meter and dummy plug for transducer maintenance, Sta-plugs by each thru-hull, rubber mat to cover a major hull breech with her own cordless drill and screws on board, eight new cockpit cushions that double as throwable flotation devices, Blue Sea USB charging ports in the cockpit and in the cabin, a stowable cockpit table, a new replacement Nicro Vent in the head (already failed), two Fantastic Breeze DC box fans, more insulation around the icebox, a new replacement JBL marine stereo head and speakers (that we rarely use), a flag staff and mount on the stern rail, an extra six gallon fuel tank, an extra three gallon fuel tank, and three fore sails, as well as oversized ground tackle including two Danforth anchors, one fisherman anchor, one mushroom anchor, and two 200' anchor rhodes with 4' of chain each. She has a complete tool set on board and a nice suite of spare parts. (No, I'll never win a race.)

Tomorrow, she's getting all new switches on the DC electrical panel. Later this month I'll have the pressurized water system complete. I'm also in the process of building a solid wood bi-fold door to the head to replace the accordion door. I might put better solar panels on the bimini or buy a generator. I still want to install a marine head.

Most of this equipment is unnecessary for inland lake sailing, but I've finally acquired a trailer to make more adventurous sailing possible. I even bought a Suburban to tow her. So my dream of adventurous sailing to new destinations is becoming a reality!

While my sailing dreams have increased to include adventurous sailing to new destinations, my wife does not share that dream, yet. So I have a buddy trip to Tangier Island planned for early October. If that goes well, then I hope to do a buddy trip to the Dry Tortugas in December. If those go well, then I hope to take my older children on some adventures before they go away for college.

Unfortunately, my wife wants me to sell our C25, "Outlier", but I'm not. Maybe I'll rename her "Girlfriend".

Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/

Edited by - sethp001 on 08/18/2017 23:17:32

TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2017 : 04:31:33

"Maybe I'll rename her "Girlfriend". "

My all time favorite boat name I've seen throughout the years was "The Other Woman", written out in Spanish (can't remember the translation). Eloquent but true.

Tom Curran
1981 Capri 25 Hull #101 "Dirty Debbie"
1988 Watkins 30
PAFB, FL

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2017 : 07:21:48

quote:
Originally posted by sethp001

...So I have a buddy trip to Tangier Island planned for early October...

Better hurry--it's slipping away!

Here's an interesting thread about a visit to Smith Island, just north of Tangier but very similar... Check out Tom Horton's book that I mention there--it's a fascinating little read about a slowly vanishing civilization right inside MD and VA, by a guy who tried living on Smith for a while.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2017 : 13:46:57

quote:
Originally posted by sethp001

... I'm also in the process of building a solid wood bi-fold door to the head to replace the accordion door...

My accordion door is still usable but it's slowly coming apart. Another year or two and I may be in need of replacing it.

If possible could you post some pictures as things progress?

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2017 : 14:31:16

One potential benefit from a bi-fold door would be getting rid of the "head knocker" (track) from the accordion.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2017 : 15:48:45

Hi Tom,

The other woman : La Otra Mujer.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

TCurran
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2017 : 14:56:49

quote:
Originally posted by Bladeswell

Hi Tom,

The other woman : La Otra Mujer.

Bladeswell

Thanks!

Tom Curran
1981 Capri 25 Hull #101 "Dirty Debbie"
1988 Watkins 30
PAFB, FL

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 08/20/2017 : 18:58:30

quote:
Originally posted by bigelowp

Earlier this season the Admiral told me she was not comfortable with me hanging over the transom messing with (raising/lowering) the outboard and maybe it was time for a boat with an inboard auxiliary. I told her that what we have is just fine, especially considering how little we were getting out to sail. Soon she was obsessed with our NOT having an outboard. I can't say I have been racing out to find something, especially considering I would have only a beer budget -- and low end at that. However I have been surprised, with minimal effort, to find many excellent options and many -- in better than good condition -- at very low prices. Examples I have looked at include: 82 Cat 27 with diesel, $2,500 (owner retiring from sailing) 79 Pearson 30 with diesel and new sails, $6,500 (guy bought it and does not like sailing - going to power) 74 Tartan 30 with A4, impeccable condition, $5,500 (owner transferred overseas) and a 77 Pearson 10M, diesel, $8,500. (two boat owner)...

For serious cruising, yes. For daysailing or even overnighting, you'd be adding a level of complexity and maintenance that will, in the long run diminish the experience of ownership. First, an Atomic 4, being a gas engine, is by definition OLD, therefore with reliability questions, and requires a power ventilation system for gasoline fumes. Diesels are more attractive from the safety point of view, and probably newer, but definitely noisier, and raise issues of algae and sludge in the fuel tank. Either requires a raw-water system drawing from a thru-hull to either a heat-tranfer case or (worse in salt water) the engine itself. Both are more expensive to get annual maintenance on than an outboard, and are multiples of the cost for re-powering when the time comes.

Inboards seem nice from a distance when they go by, and make the boat look nice... But there has always been a reason for outboards on boats this size and below. Simpler is better.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/20/2017 18:59:45

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2017 : 08:50:53

If you buy a later model diesel powered sailboat, you can easily lose $2500.00 from it's purchase price in a year from depreciation. If you're talking about an older, lower-priced boat powered with an A4 engine for $2500-3000.00 for example, you might be able to sail that boat for 10-15 years without repowering it, or perhaps the engine will continue to run trouble free for another 20-30 years, or you might be able to sell it for $2000. or donate it to a charity and get a tax deduction, or give it to a young sailor for his first boat. When you're buying a boat, it's all about condition. An older boat with a good hull and good engine can provide many years of service. That's why a pre-purchase survey can save you much grief.

A good A4 engine is safe and a joy to operate. I have been crewing on my friend's A4 powered boat for 13 years, and the engine is as simple to maintain as your lawn mower. It starts easily and parts are readily available, and reasonably priced. It used to be said that the only part that can't be replaced is the engine block, but I've heard that a California company has been making new engine blocks for the A4. We motorsailed the boat to Annapolis and back several times a year (30 miles each way) for 13 years without a burp, in good weather and bad. The engine's reliability is comforting. Last year, the block (58 years old - How many diesels are still running after 58 years?) finally rusted through, and my friend simply installed an outboard engine on the boat, and she is still sailing the Bay.

As for the safety issue, don't spill gasoline in the engine compartment. If there's a gasoline leak on the engine, fix it. Sniff for gas fumes and use the blower before you start the engine.

If you don't maintain the furnace or water heater in your home, it could blow up too, but you don't really obsess over that possibility.

I saw a gas powered boat explode about 60 years ago, and it's a horrible sight, but the operator failed to follow the simple precautions above. He gassed it up, spilled gas in the engine compartment, and started it without running the blower or airing out the fumes.

In buying a boat, look at the value of the boat in it's entirety. An A4 powered boat might very well be a much better value at a much lower price than a diesel powered boat. It's all about price and condition. Anyone who has had experience operating an A4 engine will tell you that safety really isn't a significant factor.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 08/21/2017 : 09:37:15

quote:
Originally posted by GaryB

quote:
Originally posted by sethp001

... I'm also in the process of building a solid wood bi-fold door to the head to replace the accordion door...

If possible could you post some pictures as things progress?

Sure!

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1773 Posts

Response Posted - 08/22/2017 : 09:13:48

A lot of good thoughts here. The message I was trying to get across is just that sometimes "others" want you to do something that "you" do not really want to do, so you drag your feet. Regarding upgrading, I fully agree that simpler is better, when sailing with my son we never even use the engine unless totally becalmed, but when the Admiral, we do use the engine, and it is a bit of a pain. I may have a custom stern rail made to make it easier all call it a day at that.

HOWEVER regarding the other boats, it is interesting at some of the value out there. While a survey is always needed, I will cite the Tartan 30 I looked at. Rebuilt A-4 in 2014, Awlgriped topsides in 2010, New cushions in 2014, electrical was redone in 2000, sails are from 2000+2003, etc., etc. Yes, have not done a survey for problems such as soft decks -- but they felt fine and everything appeared to be bedded properly. The reality is most people want newer and this guy, who is living in Germany now, just wants to avoid incurring winter storage charges and not have to worry about a boat on the hard 4,000 miles away, hence the price. He did sell it and all I know is for "less than asking price" BTW -- I could find no C-30's that were not in really sad shape for under $12k My guess is that as Catalina is still in business and the C-30 is a really popular boat, they are holding their resale better despite the fact that the Tartan may well sail better. Just saying that those other boats I saw, while maybe with issues, may still be a good opportunity for anyone on a beer budget.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Edited by - bigelowp on 08/22/2017 09:19:26

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