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leaky ballast tank?

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mdidomenico
1st Mate

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Initially Posted - 06/11/2016 : 16:36:29

As a continuation of this thread

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=29835

where we left off discussing the water forming above the ballast tank.

Since, this discussion, the yard replaced the centerboard lifting sheave with a new sheave from CatalinaDirect and new stainless bolts. They also squirted some sikaflex on the backside of the sheave and probably down the bolt holes (wasn't there when they did it)

Unfortunately, i'm still getting water in the channels along the sides of the boat that run back to the bilge and on top of the tank when the channels fill up.

I'm starting to wonder whether my ballast tank has cracked.

https://goo.gl/photos/sT3XxzTJuhUPPFzg7

If you look at the pictures linked above, you can see what looks like a fairly long crack on the starboard side under the v-berth. there is also a very suspect crackish looking area underneath the sink running aft under the kitchen area. (sorry for the bad pictures, i thought i had a better one, but i'll take some better ones next weekend)

So, now i'm on a mission to see if indeed my ballast tank has a crack in it. Some facts;

The boat is completely dry over the winter months when the yard pulls the boat and it sits on the stand. rain and inches of snow melting on top of it, no water was inside.

The boat used to have a leak in the bilge around the depth sensors, but i pulled them this year and rebed them with Sikaflex. When i vacuum the water out of the bilge, it doesn't appear to be seaping in around the sensors at all.

If i vacuum out the area under the sink, it refills with water

Some facts from the previous owner;

The PO took a fairly hard hit on the starboard side. As part of the purchase i had the cracked fiberglass removed in the freeboard above the water line right behind the kitchette. The glass was completely relaid in this area. There was no mention of any damage lower towards the tank, but they weren't looking either.

The PO also left the boat to sit in the yard for a few years. When i first visited the boat, there was a few inches of water on the floor, but it was suspected that this was from the leaking hatch (which still leaks). i don't recall whether there was any water sitting under the floor above the tank. i finally figured this leak out and i'm fairly positive the two are not connected. its reasonable to assume that if there was standing water between the tank and the floor that ice expansion could have cracked it.

it might also be reasonable to assume that since the boat sat in the yard for awhile (years?) that standing water in the channels delam'ed the joint.

So what to do;

i don't have a foot pump, but i do have a small shop vac, (the kind that you put on top of a 5gal bucket). using it to blow the water from the ballast tank, presuming that if the tank isn't full, no water should seep through the cracks. would this be too much pressure for the tank?

i also thought about leaving the fill valve closed and pressurize the tank with the vacuum, hoping that i might see bubbles. but that sounded dangerous.

i thought about dying the tank water. but is that wise? is it safe for the environment? how much dye would i need? (the tank is full of seawater currently)

I'm going to see about getting a scope to look under the kitchenette and around the bilge compartments where i can't see or photograph.

any other suggestions?

What ifs;

If the tank is cracked under the sink heading behind the kitchenette, is this even fixable?

If I just deal with the water being there, what are the long term issues? delam in that area of the tank, hull, or joint?

Is filing an insurance claim (boat us) going to open a world of hurt?

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1311 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2016 : 22:01:46

Of all things a leaky ballast tank will be a nuisance since there are areas that are hard and costly to reach.

Having had cracked fiberglass as a result of a hard hit to the hull could potentially involve problems along the ballast-tank/hull seal.

It may be a too simplistic approach for lack of better solutions but from the photo's it seems that you, before anything else, should attempt to temporary seal the view-able, suspected areas with a good sealant and see if that reduces or better yet stops the leaks.

No use, at this point, worrying about the hard to reach areas...

Frost is an unlikely cause of damage in areas where water is able t expand

1) Perhaps it's okay, but I would hesitate putting the tank under a lot of atmospheric pressure. Perhaps just slightly above atmospheric pressure is sufficient to blow bubbles??

2) Adding dye to the ballast water may provide an indication. When releasing the dye stained water will it discolor the exterior hull as well or would washable dye be available

3) When blowing the tank just before retrieving the boat and with the hull valve open, we use hand and battery powered air-mattress pumps. Perhaps that's the time to duck below and check visible areas for leaks and possibly air-bubbles. In your case you could try using the blow side of your vacuum cleaner. If the tank is less than full you could tip and check either port or starboard side for leaks or bubbles by heeling the boat

I sincerely hope a simple solution can be found since it is a worry all Ballast Tank owners share... perhaps more knowledgeable people will provide input...

Henk & Johanna
"Floating", a few off your "barnacles".
"Someday Lady" '95 C250WB #151 ('03 - 2016)
"Sea ya" 30ft Bayliner (04-2018 - 09-2018)
"Mariah" '96 C250WB #191 (05-2019 - 15-05-2023)
"Lady J" '00 C250WK #499 (05-2021 - 09-2022)

Edited by - zeil on 06/13/2016 06:32:01

doublereefed
Navigator

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167 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2016 : 07:51:01

I've thought about this myself. I would soap the joints (a couple of drops of dish soap in a cup of water) and then pressurize the tank. Use the air mattress pump, hand pump, or the vacuum. The mattress pump and vacuum can only pressurize up to a certain pressure before the back pressure equalizes air in and out. If you are worried about this, fill the tank with air with the filler open, when you get air out the bottom then close the filler and turn off the shop vac. See what you have for leaks (or not), and then pulse the shop vac to create a little more pressure. This soapy joint method is a typical way to test gas (natural gas, propane, etc.) and air lines for leaks. If you have a leaky joint you will see it immediately. Easier than dye.

Best,

-Richard

'95 C250 WB #61
Midway, UT

Edited by - doublereefed on 06/13/2016 10:29:21

mdidomenico
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 06/18/2016 : 12:24:30

I've update the gallery in my first post with plenty of more pictures.

It looks like my tank is in deed leaking, definitely in two spots, possibly three.

The first spot is along the along starboard side towards the front. The second spot is around the bulkhead/footwell below the mast step area.
The third spot is under the kitchette area.

Some things to note;

1. using a vacuum exhaust to pressurize the tank is a bad idea. aside from all the potential problems it could cause, it had one huge side affect i didn't account for. a geyser of water to fire out of the air vent under the steps like a firehose. knowing the boat wasn't going to sink, i didn't panic, but holy moly a lot of water came shooting back out.

2. when blowing the tank apparently the air bubbles can push water back up the keel cable tube. seems logical but i wasn't prepared for the water to come spurting out there either.

I was never able to get the tank under pressure or vacuum enough to exhibit any kind of bubbling in the suspected crack locations, so i came up short on that end. i did not attempt to dye the tank.

i did however vacuum out a lot of water and trace where it was coming and going.

the starboard side is a weep, when i vacuum out the channel till it's dry it fills back in slowly, but at a noticeable rate.

the area under the kitchenette is about the same

the area under the mast step is much worse. if i put the vacuum nozzle there and just leave it, it pretty much never empties of water. i think the ballast tank lid has separated there, leaving not necessarily a hole, but a definite crack.

i'm going to talk to the boat yard where i'm at and see if they have any recommendations. they have a fiberglass guy, so i can probably get a good estimate on repairs fairly quick. he's the same guy that fixed the aforementioned crack in the side of the boat.

what scares me about this whole thing, is that we only planned to keep the boat for another 3 or 4 years and then move up to a larger boat. i'm worried at some point i'm going to be stuck with a boat i can't sell, cause seriously who's going to buy a boat with a cracked ballast tank. and i couldn't in good consciousness not tell the next person.

the ultimate question though is whether to call the insurance company and file a claim. i'm concerned that if i don't file a claim now, i'll never be able to. at which point i'll be stuck with a boat i can't sell and can't afford to write off.

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2016 : 13:28:23

You could use the toilet leak tablets that'll dye the water in the tank a dark green or blue. You might need a few of them, but if the leaks are along the bottom (as your pictures seem to indicate), you shouldn't have to fill the tank very full to get the leaks to show up.

Make sure your bilges are completely dry before you start, and then use your camera to take video (make sure you have plenty of light) and you might be able to precisely locate the leaks.

An air mattress blower is probably sufficient for blowing out your ballast, you want to be very careful about over pressurizing the tank as the over pressure could easily crack the fiberglass. That said, unless you have a super industrial vacuum cleaner, I'm not sure it could generate enough pressure to cause an over pressure crack, especially if you rigged it with deliberate air escape(s).

David
C-250 Mainsheet Editor

Sirius Lepak
1997 C-250 WK TR #271 --Seattle area Port Captain --

Edited by - delliottg on 06/19/2016 13:30:40

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1311 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2016 : 21:49:55

Thank you for the photo's outlining the problem areas. Even though we're fairly familiar with the layout between, so to speak, floors it is hard to identify the exact areas where the photo's were taken. A description, if at all possible would be helpful.

Just to clarify, could it be that this boat was hard grounded, rolled or was in the south during one of the hurricanes?

Perhaps I'm mistaken but the leakage around the center board trunk and as part of it the mast compression post should not be a problem unless the tank sheared around it by some great force.

The leakage along the port and starboard sides could possibly have been caused by compression forces on either or both sides.

We would be very interested to learn what experts will say about fixing and repairing the leaks. Keep us posted

mdidomenico
1st Mate

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71 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2016 : 16:17:58

I'll add a description to each of the pictures, i'll try my best to orient the photos with the layout of the boat.

I sent an email to the yard over the weekend, but they're not "email people", so i'll likely not get an answer till this weekend when i go back down there.

as far as i know, i'm the second owner of the boat. and i presume its never left NJ since it had no trailer. My understanding from the yard workers was; a guy bought the boat brand new in '96 sailed for a few years, but got busy with work. he then only sailed off and on. it hadn't been in the water for a couple of years before i bought it.

my understanding is that there was also no damage from Sandy. The boat sits in a cradle supported by boards that run down each side, it's fairly well supported, it also gets rope tied to the cradle. according to the marina the water barely crested over the bulkheads around the marina during the storm.

the crack under the kitchenette could very well be from a hard hit. i did have the large hole cut and repaired in the freeboard where it was evident he likely came into a dock or piling a little too hard. it's possible the damage from that hit was much worse then anyone realized.

but i don't believe that hit could have caused the crack further forward on the starboard side, nor the crack around the bulkhead for the centerboard under the compression post. i would be more liable to believe that it's a mfg flaw coupled with ice damage

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1311 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2016 : 21:39:52

Thank you for sharing your information... I've been thinking about the tank leakages and trying to come up with something plausible and helpful. So far I seem to be of little help. Hopefully some others will be able provide sound and useful information of how to seal the tank including the hard to get to areas.

We're on the verge of departing with our '95 C250WB for a cruise through the Gulf Islands and perhaps further north towards Desolation Sound. Whenever possible we'll keep in touch...

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1311 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2016 : 16:06:03

While cruising the Canadian Gulf Islands already for the last two weeks, we keep on thinking about possible solutions for your Ballast tank problems... did you make any progress in analyzing the problems and finding solutions, estimates and ways to fix the seepage.

We'll be watching this forum for updates and news while continuing sailing, until about mid August, in this beautiful area on the way to Desolation Sound approx 150nm north of Sidney BC

mdidomenico
1st Mate

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71 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2016 : 10:56:52

unfortunately no news just yet. i've not heard from the boatyard, have to go down there this weekend and give them a poke.

slaedlein
1st Mate

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USA
51 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2016 : 17:57:04

Last summer i had a similar problem with my 97 250. leak was on the starboard side forward. I used to blow the tanks with a camp mattress pump, but heard a cracking sound two summers ago and haven't used that method since. Leak was noticed the following summer. I suspect the crack had some water in it and over the winter froze and expanded the crack to a point where i would find about a cup of water a day in the bilge. i pulled the boat, used a dremmel tool to clean out the crack starting near the bow the length of the starboard side as far as i could reach to just under the sink and then used West epoxy to fill and smooth in as best I could. This summer i found a very small leak / weap all the way forward starting at the pint just prior to my repair. The leak seems to have stopped as i have no water in the bilge for the past 3 weeks despite sailing about 3 days a week. When i pull the boat at the end of the season, i plan to do the same so that the entire length of the starboard side has been sealed.

Scott
HuBeStu
1997 WB
Hull# 250

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9047 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2016 : 18:32:06

quote:
Originally posted by mdidomenico

...the crack under the kitchenette could very well be from a hard hit. i did have the large hole cut and repaired in the freeboard where it was evident he likely came into a dock or piling a little too hard. it's possible the damage from that hit was much worse then anyone realized.

but i don't believe that hit could have caused the crack further forward on the starboard side, nor the crack around the bulkhead for the centerboard under the compression post. i would be more liable to believe that it's a mfg flaw coupled with ice damage

I might not agree... A hit against a dock or piling that would require a "hole cut" to repair the hull of a Catalina is a violent hit. Seams in interior structures through the mid-sections of the hull, especially like a ballast tank that is built as part of the rigid structural grid of the hull, could be cracked by the stresses that result. I wish I had a more optimistic suspicion.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

zeil
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Response Posted - 07/22/2016 : 11:45:56

Even though very unpleasant I tend to agree with Dave. The boat must have taken some severe hits if the tank is separating and leaking in so many locations

Always a bit apprehensive we've taken our '95 boat for thousands of miles over some pretty rough roads without experiencing any nastiness illustrating its toughness

If and only if tank repair would be too cumbersome, costly or not worth the bother has anyone heard of transferring a water ballast to a wing-keel. Could it be done?

mdidomenico
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 02/26/2017 : 16:13:26

In case anyone is still following my saga. it's come a new season, only to find out from the boat yard yesterday that their fiberglass guy up and quit.

I'm still keen on getting my boat repaired, but now i have to find my own guy. Does anyone have a recommendation around the Barnegat, NJ area?

DavidCrosby
Navigator

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USA
233 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2017 : 21:04:00

Take a look at the following link.

http://www.jag-aire.com/copy-of-cat-250wk

My brother fixed a 95 C250 wb with a major tank leak. The main problem area was the top of the tank under the aft bunk. There were some other areas as well. We believe that the break in the tank occurred due to how the boat sat stern low on the trailer. The ballast tank never fully emptied resulting in the water within freezing and cracking the top of the tank. I am certain my brother could fix your boat. Unfortunately, he is not very close to you. He is located just east of St. Louis (Highland, IL.). His hourly rate is reasonable enough that it may be worth the trip though.

David Crosby "Small World"
'02 C250 WK #614

mdidomenico
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 03/24/2017 : 07:05:56

my continued saga comes to a near end today... best estimate to fix the issues is $3500. The bulk of the cost comes from the tight space for working and the crack around the compression post area is a fairly severe salt water delamination. The yard owner and fiberglass guy are pretty sure it's a defect from manufacturing that got worse over time. and there was probably some ice expansion in the cracks in the bilge drains before i bought the boat, when it say in the yard unused for a few years.

I can't see putting another $3500 into the boat at this point. it's still "sailable" and i've paid for the slip for the season, so i'll likely sail and enjoy it through the summer. in the fall i'll attempt to part it out and recoup some of my money, unless someone can convince me the boat is savable. note: saving must include the fact that i'm ready to sell and move to a larger boat, so any additional investment is just money lost.

thoughts, prays, opinions are welcome... i'll be on the couch... ugh...

DavidCrosby
Navigator

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USA
233 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2017 : 11:14:08

What year is your boat? What do you consider the value to be if it did not have a declared water ballast leak?

The boat I mentioned that my brother fixed is a 1995. It is a very basic boat, so without its ballast leak probably would not have commanded top dollar regardless. Anyhow, it was listed for $5,500. It ultimately sold for $2,500.

I personally did not consider it safe to sail. When launched the tank is filled and then the intake valve is closed. Eventually the leak slows down making it very hard to figure out where it was coming from.

We discovered while sitting at the dock, trying to figure out where the leak was coming from that the majority of the ballast was dumped over board via the bilge pump (hence not safe to sail).

The leak was easily found by filling the tank with water via a hose while sitting on the trailer.

My brother repaired the water ballast tank, pretty well all of the areas you mentioned plus a major crack under the aft berth. Additionally he modified the trailer so the boat would sit level on the trailer when out of the water to add removal of water in the tank. His bill was $2,500.

David Crosby "Small World"
'02 C250 WK #614

mdidomenico
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 03/24/2017 : 11:58:18

quote:
Originally posted by DavidCrosby

What year is your boat? What do you consider the value to be if it did not have a declared water ballast leak?
The boat I mentioned that my brother fixed is a 1995. It is a very basic boat, so without its ballast leak probably would not have commanded top dollar regardless. Anyhow, it was listed for $5,500. It ultimately sold for $2,500.

mine is a 1996. my guess for value is probably around the same $5-8k if it had no issues. i've replaced a lot on it already so i *might* be able to command a higher price. but the market around me (NJ) is flooded with '25 boats that don't have nearly this level of problem. i've had it listed on craigslist (with the stated issues), the only bite i had was one guy that wanted to pay $1500.

quote:
Originally posted by DavidCrosby

I personally did not consider it safe to sail. When launched the tank is filled and then the intake valve is closed. Eventually the leak slows down making it very hard to figure out where it was coming from.
We discovered while sitting at the dock, trying to figure out where the leak was coming from that the majority of the ballast was dumped over board via the bilge pump (hence not safe to sail).

i did pretty much the same thing. i was able to trace the leaks down being in and out of the water through the summer and winter seasons. eventually i found exactly where the water was coming in. fortunately, once the boat settles into the water and the tank is full it pretty much slows to a fast drip. the bilge pump pretty much starts and stops all day, it takes a couple hours before there's enough water in the box to actually pump a fair bit out.

as for safe, dunno. the tank is full when sailed and my centerboard works. its probably more tender then it should be, but i'm not overly worried. i don't sail hard, rail dipping, in 20 knots winds either.

DavidCrosby
Navigator

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USA
233 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2017 : 12:22:28

I am not saying that your boat is not safe to sail. However, I do know that the boat my brother repaired was losing the majority of it's ballast. Once the leak slowed to a trickle and the bilge stopped, opening the valve would fill the tank again for quite awhile and the process started all over. The boat was also rather tipsy at the dock.

Regarding fix or not fix. I guess I can say from my experience, I rebuilt a Morgan 30 from a derelict. I bought the boat for a song. Enjoyed it for four years and got far less out of it when I sold it versus what I had invested in the rebuild. Although, I suppose that is typical. By a brand new boat and see what it sells for several years down the road. As they say, "A boat is a hole in the lake in which you pour money into."

If you feel it is safe, my vote is to enjoy it.

David Crosby "Small World"
'02 C250 WK #614

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1311 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2017 : 23:32:02

Just a thought...

Rather than fixing a leaky ballast tank would it be a consideration to ballast the boat with 1200 lbs of solid, non shift-able materials...

Your thoughts please...

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/25/2017 : 02:28:40

quote:
Originally posted by DavidCrosby

...Regarding fix or not fix. I guess I can say from my experience, I rebuilt a Morgan 30 from a derelict. I bought the boat for a song. Enjoyed it for four years and got far less out of it when I sold it versus what I had invested in the rebuild. Although, I suppose that is typical...

Someone once told me, "The most expensive boat you can buy may be the one with the lowest initial purchase price."

I've always paid a little more to get a newer boat (but still down its depreciation curve) in sailaway condition. I hit the mark perfectly on my C250 (kept it for 6 years, then stripped off almost all the improvements and sold it for what I paid). My current C34 is in amazing condition and consequently cost a few thousand more than typical market prices (from Soldboats data). I also got it for $28,000 less than PO paid for it 8 years before. It remains to be seen whether I'll be similarly lucky when I sell it. As a larger boat, ability to finance becomes more important, and lenders are more reluctant as a boat gets older, regardless of condition.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 03/25/2017 02:34:43

mdidomenico
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 03/25/2017 : 05:34:55

quote:
Originally posted by zeil

Rather than fixing a leaky ballast tank would it be a consideration to ballast the boat with 1200 lbs of solid, non shift-able materials...

this crossed my mind a time or two in the past as well. i had thought about enlarging the air vent hole in the stair well and filling the tank full of a concrete slurry (no aggregate). i backed away from it for two reasons. one, i wasn't sure what that would do to the boat or whether i could get enough material in there to get up to 1200lbs. two, i suspected that would absolutely kill resale.

ultimately i think what i'm going to end up doing is; sail it through the summer, come this fall i'll post an ad for the parts, if there's enough interest in the bigger stuff like cushions, hatch covers, mast, rails, etc then i might just part it out if i can get it all gone at one. and then the smaller stuff cleats, lines, blocks, etc i'll hold onto for when i get another boat or sell them on ebay.

if i can't get enough people interested in taking all the parts, then i'll probably just sail it until i have enough money saved for a new "to me" boat and then sell off whatever parts i can and crush it.

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9047 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2017 : 09:55:05

quote:
Originally posted by DavidCrosby

...The boat was also rather tipsy at the dock...

"Tender", "tipsy"... These are characteristics of water that isn't completely confined so it's stationary in the hull--such as in a partially filled ballast tank (not to mention moving feely in the bilge). If you've ever stepped into a small boat with rain water inside, you probably found that it wanted to deposit you in the drink! The water moves to the low side, becoming "negative ballast." I experienced this at a boat show some years back, where I was astonished by the tippiness of a C-250 when I stepped aboard. The salesman explained that he had only partially filled the tank because he wasn't going to be sailing--not realizing he had made it worse. I had to explain his problem to him... (Duh!)

Whatever you're doing this summer, be sure the tank doesn't lose enough water to become negative ballast.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/25/2017 09:59:26

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.