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Keel bolt nuts replacement

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slim
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USA
113 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/13/2016 : 11:03:47

So since i have the time now i am looking hard at replacing my keel nuts if the bolts are all good. I have removed one nut and washer so far. The research says it is mild steel in my year boat (1978). I�m still wondering just what is the best nut and washer for this would galvanised be better? I will change these out every few years now that i am doing it and it will be much easier that way. Should they be coated with anything? Rust inhibitor or something of that nature? I was thinking of using marine wheel bearing greas? What is the correct torque for the installation of the nuts?? This is not going to be a fast project as i am soaking each of the nuts for days before i remove them, the first one i was using acetone and ATF fluid in a 50/50 mix, it worked pretty good. Just make a dam out of butyl tape and fill it around the nut. Any other ideas would be appreciated.

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

Edited by - slim on 04/13/2016 11:05:34

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2016 : 12:08:35

The bolt looks good... I'd use a regular steel nut and washer, with something like Loctite Threadlocker, to avoid galvanic corrosion. Then I'd coat the whole thing with something like roofing cement or toilet wax. It seems to me grease will tend to gradually ooze and go out as scum with any bilge water.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/13/2016 12:11:01

SKS
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161 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2016 : 19:55:28

I'd recommend using NeverSeeze as a thread lubricant.

http://www.neverseezproducts.com/marine.htm

After you've installed the nuts, then use a tar compound to cover them. Be aware that you'll have to re-coat the nuts as part of your ITPM routine.

As always, my free advice comes with a double your money back guarantee.

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2016 : 21:12:02

NeverSeeze is a great product, but I would probably use it in conjunction with a lock washer or jam nut after torquing in this application. I always use it on disk brake bolts and slide pins, a very harsh test, and they always come apart easily. I agree that something more permanent than grease would be better for coating. Wax based corrosion inhibitors have a pretty good track record without making disassembly painful.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

islander
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4018 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2016 : 17:34:07

Wow Slim, Looking at the first photo I'm amazed that you got that nut off. Did you use an air gun or breaker bar?

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 04/14/2016 17:35:33

slim
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113 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2016 : 06:22:13

quote:
Originally posted by islander

Wow Slim, Looking at the first photo I'm amazed that you got that nut off. Did you use an air gun or breaker bar?

I used a air gun after i cut off the top of the bolt at the top of the nut and soaked the whole thing in a 50/50 mixture of acetone and ATF fluid for a day. A few of the nuts are so badly corroded that i will need to cut them or find another method of removal.

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

Edited by - slim on 04/15/2016 06:24:35

slim
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113 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2016 : 06:47:34

Since i am not getting any info on the torque of these bolts, i researched it and found that i have way too many options about bolt grade to make a knowledgeable choice regarding the torque for the keel bolt nuts. My question is which is the most desirable - to over torque or under torque? In other words if i make a mistake and do one or the other which one will be the least disastrous for me to deal with?

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

Tomas Kruska
Admiral

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Czech Republic
522 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2016 : 07:16:31

I'm not sure if the torque is critical, but I've found something between 70-100ft/lbs.

See here http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=6842.0 or https://www.mail-archive.com/catalina27-talk%40memberclicks.com/msg04527.html

Dalpol Phobos 21, 2013, Sole Mio, hull #27, current adventures - We sail Phobos 21

PO of Catalina C25, 1978, High Anxiety, hull #701, SR, FK, L-dinette, inboard diesel Volvo Penta MD2010C w/saildrive - more info

Edited by - Tomas Kruska on 04/15/2016 07:21:01

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2016 : 09:43:13

The more you want to apply, the larger the washer you might want under the nut. Beneath that fiberglass shell is a wood core that you don't want to over-compress and crack the glass. If I saw compression starting, I'd figure I've gone far enough.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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4018 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2016 : 13:41:02

I agree with Dave, There's a wood plate under the fiberglass then the keel. You don't want to go so far as to start crushing things. The keel is also held on with something like 5200 and I've heard the keel will stay on even without the bolts and is still difficult to remove. You could call Catalina and see what they say about a torque number.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 04/15/2016 13:46:11

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2016 : 13:52:21

quote:
Originally posted by islander

...The keel is also held on with something like 5200 and I've heard the keel will stay on even without the bolts and is still difficult to remove.

Nice thought, but I wouldn't want to count on just 5200 under sail in a seaway. Anyway, the only Catalina keel I've ever heard about falling off was a swinger on Derek Crawford's C-22, which led to the name of his C-25: ^This Side Up^.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

slim
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113 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2016 : 17:31:37

quote:
Originally posted by islander

I agree with Dave, There's a wood plate under the fiberglass then the keel. You don't want to go so far as to start crushing things. The keel is also held on with something like 5200 and I've heard the keel will stay on even without the bolts and is still difficult to remove. You could call Catalina and see what they say about a torque number.

I agree that we would not want to destroy our wood support by over compressing the bolt - nuts however i wonder just why it (the wood) was used in the first place. From what i have been able to find on the internet for bolt torques, the 5/8 - 11 (coarse thread) class A bolts or all thread used in my boat lubricated is 83 ft lb. and can go up from there depending on the bolt metal - type 8 bolts suggested torque is 160 ft lb lubricated. So i am thinking that 80 ft lb would be plenty if i can get it to that without damaging any other parts of the keel.

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

Edited by - slim on 04/15/2016 17:32:37

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2016 : 19:48:45

Catalina is very helpful with old models. Giving them a call would be best.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

slim
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113 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2016 : 16:53:53

Got all of the nuts off with some work, had to cut 3 off and the rest worked off with air hammer and six sided socket along with chisel and hammer. Using grease to run nuts up and down then will torque as best i can. I am going to feel a lot better about the keel attachment after this!!!

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2016 : 21:00:02

quote:
Originally posted by slim

I agree that we would not want to destroy our wood support by over compressing the bolt - nuts however i wonder just why it (the wood) was used in the first place. From what i have been able to find on the internet for bolt torques, the 5/8 - 11 (coarse thread) class A bolts or all thread used in my boat lubricated is 83 ft lb. and can go up from there depending on the bolt metal - type 8 bolts suggested torque is 160 ft lb lubricated. So i am thinking that 80 ft lb would be plenty if i can get it to that without damaging any other parts of the keel.

The wood core is essentially a backing plate--they wouldn't have done it that way now. But torque specs like this, I'm suspicious, are for nuts being cranked down against a metal surface--not fiberglass over wood. Be careful.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2016 : 06:59:10

Another thought: Catalina Direct sells kits for installing new keel bolts--including directions... probably including a step for tightening the nuts... You could call them with your question--their tech guys are pretty helpful.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/22/2016 07:02:07

Voyager
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5353 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2016 : 08:41:14

When my carpenter fixed some wood trim and decking he used something called wood hardener on the softer materials. It made the wood, well, very hard. That might help with torquing and backing up the nuts.
Another thought on this would be to drill out the wood with a bent nail in the drill chuck. Drill down all the way.
Then fill the void with thickened epoxy. That might firm things up a bit.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

slim
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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2016 : 12:50:44

The above are all good thoughts and consideration for the tightening of the keel nuts and i appreciate each and every one. I have not torqued down anything yet and will do some more thinking and posable phoning around on it before i do. I am considering enlarging the backing area from washer size to a metal plate that covers a larger area as that may help with the weight distribution but don't want to over engineer this thing.

Another consideration i am looking at is the corrosion factor. On the original nuts and washers the corrosion is pretty uniform and i am thinking that i might be able to slow this down if i can keep the water/air from coming in contact with the metal. The threads on the studs and nuts were corroded very little and i could tell that they had used what looked like pipe dope on them in order to keep the water and air out. It Worked!!! My first thought is to do as they did with the threads to seal them up tight but the methods for sealing the rest of the exterior washer, nuts and bolts will be a little harder as the water can come from both under and on top of the fixture also i want complete access for inspection and maintenance purposes. Since the nuts and washers can be replaced now without to much trouble i think the stud threads will be the critical part to maintain- corrosion free - if possible and from what i can tell the sealant used did a good job of that so i will probably use the same.

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

Edited by - slim on 04/28/2016 16:00:15

islander
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Response Posted - 04/22/2016 : 13:55:39

As Dave and I suggested I would coat the entire bilge and nuts with roofing cement or Herculiner truck bed liner which is a paint on liner for pick-ups. I've used the Herculiner before to seal up a floor compartment in a boat an it did the job of waterproofing and is incredibly tough. It can be found in any auto store.

quote:
Super tough polyurethane/rubber liner material is flexible, waterproof and resists chemicals, rust and skidding.

quote:
Can bond to virtually any surface or material Can be applied to wood, metal, concrete, aluminum, asphalt, rubber, fiberglass, and most plastics, including PVC"

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

slim
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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2016 : 17:01:04

That sounds good for any water coming in from the top side but what about a seap wetting the parts from the bottom side. I find this much more insidious and possibly disastrous especially if the boat is in the water all the time.

I don't think i will do anything to obstruct my view of the keel attachment bolts and nuts as that could lead to my neglecting the proper maintenance of them. The problem is as they say - if it's out of sight it�s probably out of mind!!

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

islander
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USA
4018 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2016 : 17:55:08

Do you have the Catalina smile or a visible crack line? If not I wouldn't suspect water intrusion from underneath. Truthfully what you have already done will outlive the life of your 78 boat. I would still seal the bolts from bilge water and not obsess about it and go enjoy the boat. If you really want to never think about the bolts anymore then install the stainless bolt kit from CD. Everything has a lifespan and what you have done will carry you through till the hull gets soft or something else major ends the life of the boat. I also think you don't have water intrusion from below otherwise the bolts would have been severely rusted down in the wood plate area and would have just snapped off when you put the air gun to the nuts.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 04/22/2016 18:31:53

slim
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113 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2016 : 19:49:07

I guess i am sounding a little obsessive about this project however I did not just spend the past 4 days bent over the bilge of my boat on my hands and knees hammering, chiseling and sweating so i could just forget it! This job and all my projects are matters of pride of ownership and that means i am allowed to fuss over it as much as i see fit even if it appears a little obsessive to others.

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2016 : 10:58:27

Ya, Slim... You can print out and show this thread to the prospective buyer of your boat some day--should give him a good feeling!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

slim
Navigator

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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2016 : 12:40:04

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

Ya, Slim... You can print out and show this thread to the prospective buyer of your boat some day--should give him a good feeling!

It gives me a good feeling right now!!

1978 - C25 - standard rig - Fixed keel #1040

Tomas Kruska
Admiral

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Czech Republic
522 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2016 : 00:29:40

Good job!

When you will change the nuts every 5 years or so, it will be much easier and your boat will stay happy

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